Kraftwerk - More influential than the Beatles?

[Herr Tubthumper]

The defence, rests.

Check out the lyrics to Numbers as well.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

i think the influence on hip hop is somewhat over played. the pioneers of hip hop sampled, they sampled far and wide and one hit was using the Kraftwerk samples. but it didnt really reflect the essence of the source music, at least, not in the way electro or techno does. hip hop didnt continue off in a similar vein, the sample was a moment for that track. or put another way, if kraftwerk didnt exist, im sure hip hop still would. i've always had a hard time with kraftwerk, because while i love all the many styles and genres they have directly influenced (house, techno, D&B, etc), i really dont like their music much. its so mechanical, it feels unnatural in a way most music doesnt. i have trouble reconciling this conflict.

Leaving the original discussion to one side for a moment, lets discuss some of the points you have raised. The early hip-hoppers did not sample. Kool Herc is often cited as the first, and he used turntables to elongate beats he wanted to use. He'd mix the break from one funk record to the same break of the same record on another turntable thus elongating the break for as long as he wanted. Commercial samplers were only just coming into existence at this time and were hugely expensive, at most only available in a few studios, and generally out of reach. And they did not sample far-and-wide. If you listen to virtually every recording artist from this era they used their local record shops, mail order and cassette trading to get new music. This limited how accessible music was; far and wide was not the case.

And my view on influence is that it is not necessarily being the first, but being the one which reaches out and popularises. These are the people who truly influence. And this is where Africa Bambata and friends come in. Kool Herc did not have any commercial success in the early days. Others, who were messing around with the electronic sounds of Kraftwerk, did and in my view this group of people who took this form of music forward to its next stage and who were the true influence.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Right. Based on this thread I went on iPlayer and watched and I agree, they were more influential than The Beatles. However, (and I'm clearly going to underline my lack of 'cool' here) a whole hour went by and they didn't play or refer to 'The Model'? Even if it was to say how commercial it was and how much they hated it. Oh - and Paul Morley is like a bloke in a pub talking crap. Fair play to him for making a career out of it.

Aren't we all?

 

[Machiavelli]

Hmm. Not sure. I am, however still pissed off I missed the Tate shows. Did any one on here go ?

Saw Electricity
And just to make you feel worse, it was an extraordinary evening, in no small part because there was hardly anyone there -- only about 800 or 1,000 -- so there was lots of space to indulge in the experience.
As regards the question, I think it's too difficult to decipher. Kraftwerk were certainly more pioneering than The Beatles, who themselves were pretty arch on that front, but influential
There was someone on here slagging Paul Morley off. In terms of music, he's as astute as they get in my view, so I'll just have to wildly disagree on that one.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Saw Electricity
And just to make you feel worse, it was an extraordinary evening, in no small part because there was hardly anyone there -- only about 800 or 1,000 -- so there was lots of space to indulge in the experience.
As regards the question, I think it's too difficult to decipher. Kraftwerk were certainly more pioneering than The Beatles, who themselves were pretty arch on that front, but influential
There was someone on here slagging Paul Morley off. In terms of music, he's as astute as they get in my view, so I'll just have to wildly disagree on that one.

I think we also have to understand music is very much about opinions and debate and rarely about hard facts...sales figures aside. I do not think Morley claims to be 100% right...it's just his view. But he generally puts up a very good case for his opinion.

Morley has lots of opinon, as all good music commentators do. I love discussions like this, and if Morley can stimulate them, it's all good.

PS do you mean Radioactivity?

 

[Hamilton]

They probably both influenced musicians in a big way.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think we also have to understand music is very much about opinions and debate and rarely about hard facts...sales figures aside. I do not think Morley claims to be 100% right...it's just his view. But he generally puts up a very good case for his opinion.

Morley has lots of opinon, as all good music commentators do. I love discussions like this, and if Morley can stimulate them, it's all good.

PS do you mean Radioactivity?

Agree with all that, including meaning Radioactivity

 

[Wozza]

No, you are having a laugh. Compare the lyrics for Eleanor Rigby with Autobahn and think again.

Or...

Oh yeah I'll tell you something
I think you'll understand
When I say that something
I wanna hold your hand

I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand

Oh please say to me
You'll let me be your man
And please say to me
You'll let me hold your hand

Now let me hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand..

 

[Buzzer]

No, you are having a laugh. Compare the lyrics for Eleanor Rigby with Autobahn and think again.

Silly argument. Leonard Cohen's songwriting pisses all over anything the Beatles could ever write but does that make him necessarily more influential than the Beatles? Look how influential the Sex Pistols were and their songwriting was atrocious. You've got to look at everything the bands bring to the table - the image, the musical style, the time and place they were at their prime, what the music scene was like when they came to prominence and the bands and musical movements that came after.

You're confusing who you think are the better band with who were the most influential. Songwriting plays a small part in this.

Edit - I'm on the fence with this. It's like comparing oranges with apples.

 

[fire&skill]

Aren't we all?

Indeed we are. He makes money out of it though. Good luck to the blathering eejit.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Like Buzzer, I'm on the fence I think. Kraftwerk have undoubtedly influenced a huge body of work creating new genres along the way, but I can help but go back to 1966's recording of Tomorrow Never Knows, a track which The Chemical Brothers call 'their manifesto' and think that The Beatles wouldn't have had some impact on 'electronica' and what came after, as well as everything else you can hear their music in.

I'm an undecided.

 

[Pevenseagull]

Did Kraftwerk listen to Silver Apples?
Did Simeon listen to Steve Reich?

 

[boik]

Possibly just the bands that I listen to, but it seems to me that Can are cited as a major influence more often than Kraftwerk. PiL, The Fall, Bowie, Talking Heads, RHCP, Happy Mondays etc etc.

 

[DIFFBROOK]

Stupid thing to say. The Beatles influenced anyone who wanted to play music, be that pop, rock, with guitars or playing electronically. Kraftwerk influenced those bands that wanted to use electronic wizardry to portray their music.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Stupid thing to say. The Beatles influenced anyone who wanted to play music, be that pop, rock, with guitars or playing electronically. Kraftwerk influenced those bands that wanted to use electronic wizardry to portray their music.

What about say free-jazz, improvisation or minimalism? These genres reject pretty much reject everything bands like The Beatles stand for. So your statement seems flawed.

 

[Tony Towner's Fridge]

Better , Oh Yes. More influential on general run of the mill pop music , no. More influential on progressive electronic music, yes.

TNBA

TTF

 

[brakespear]

Paul Morley completely ruined what should have been a decent documentary by spouting his usual bollox. There was far too much of Morley.

Completely agree, cannot abide Paul Morley and he spoiled the programme. As to levels of influence - I'm not sure it really matters and is it just direct musical influence we're taliking here anyway?

 

[beorhthelm]

... And they did not sample far-and-wide. If you listen to virtually every recording artist from this era they used their local record shops, mail order and cassette trading to get new music. This limited how accessible music was; far and wide was not the case.

i meant in terms of styles, nothing was off the table, they sampled anything (agree your point on that, though isn't the mix method essential the same albeit unaided). i'm not saying Kraftwek weren't an influence, but that we shouldnt overstate it. Africa Bambataa might stumbled upon another track, worked it in and made the same success. most hiphop isn't so electronic, preferring the old r&b, soul, disco funk tracks for material, if the Kraftwerk sample was crucial to breakthough success we'd have heard far more in hip hop. instead electro and house took on that direction.

#consider this, would you claim the Winstons influenced the whole hip hop and drum & bass on the basis of the Amen break? far more use of that one loop than anything from Kraftwerk (of course, once influenced by kraftwerk you really don't need to sample much, instead create new sounds and sequences.)

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

#consider this, would you claim the Winstons influenced the whole hip hop and drum & bass on the basis of the Amen break? far more use of that one loop than anything from Kraftwerk (of course, once influenced by kraftwerk you really don't need to sample much, instead create new sounds and sequences.)

If the Winstons loop was being used in the beginning by multiple artists and formed the basis of a pioneering break-through track I probably would. But having looked it up the "Amen break", whilst widely used, it didn't come into being until '86 when hip-hop was reasonably established. It certainly helped hip-hop on its way but doesn't seem to me to be a major milestone in the growth of the genre; the big influential milestone in '86 was surely Run DMC's collaboration with Aerosmith?

Also, ubiquity does not necessarily imply influence.

 

[Mellotron]

I LOVE Kraftwerk. But let's not get silly.