[Football] Koemans sacked: What is the value of a single quality player to a manager?

[Superphil]

In a monkey tennis league where the title has been won by two teams 60 times in the last 90 years I struggle to see the attraction of Spanish football. OK, they have (had) more money than Celtic and Rangers historically, and bought (ha) the best players, but it's mostly been a two horse race year on year. Recruitment has been based on hoovering up what they've perceived to the best of everything, now something has changed (£$£) and they have no idea how to deal with it.

 

[dadams2k11]

Potter to Barcelona?

Well someone had too.

 

[keaton]

Also of note in European football Bayern last 5-0 at Monchengladbach last night in their cup with what looks like the first team

 

[drew]

An interesting point. I think you can look at how the manager does over a long period of time to determine if it’s luck with the right player or if they always do well. Micky Adams I think benefitted massively from having Bobby Zamora. Hughton benefitted from Murray but also deserves credit for getting the best out of Murray, if memory serves me right Murray hadn’t done much between Palace’s promotion season and joining us.

You seem to be forgetting his knee injury in the play off semi which kept him out of Palace's team until Feb! He was then playing second fiddle and only got 14 games in. He did ok for Reading and Bournemouth.

As for Hughton getting the best out of Murray, not sure what evidence there is for that. Yes he scored goals but he would have done provided he was fit. In the Premier league, didn't one of the strikers complain that we never worked on attack, always defence?

 

[drew]

This could start a chain reaction as OGS at Utd is precarious and Manure might feel they need to get in quick to get the best manager rather than let Barca get there first.

 

[Swansman]

They have the fourth or fifth best squad in La Liga. Real Madrid, Atletico, Sevilla, Real Sociedad, Bilbao and perhaps even Betis all look stronger and more well balanced. The Barca team is mainly a few past-it veterans with a bunch of very promising 17-19 year olds.

That was also the case last season. A single quality player can do a bunch of good, and Messi is beyond that. At least one of his four or five doubters on the planet labelled his success a result of the overall quality of the Barca team. Well, last season he didnt play in a particularly strong side, still scored 30 goals and made some 20 assists. He is just obscene. Of course they were going to miss him.

And of course people are going to have no interest in this: they attacked Koemans car in the street last week. In a year that will be Xavis car. People think "we are Barca and should be winning everything" rather than "we are Barca and this is what we can expect from this squad."

In a monkey tennis league where the title has been won by two teams 60 times in the last 90 years I struggle to see the attraction of Spanish football. OK, they have (had) more money than Celtic and Rangers historically, and bought (ha) the best players, but it's mostly been a two horse race year on year. Recruitment has been based on hoovering up what they've perceived to the best of everything, now something has changed (£$£) and they have no idea how to deal with it.

What attracts me to La Liga is generally the quality of the football. In the last 20 years the league has usually been stronger than the PL from the top teams to the bottom ones. Only in recent years with economical trouble has there been a change to this and England might overtake the position as the best league completely and permanently-ish if it continues to improve its youth academies.

La Liga is not that much more of a two or three horse race than the PL, the difference is really only that two horses compete permanently while English clubs in the past has often shat themselves after a period of domination. When only Manchester United and Arsenal could win the PL, there were four clubs that could win La Liga. Today only City, Chelsea or Liverpool could win the PL, while La Liga is a lot more unpredictable.

Its not fair to compare with Celtic and Rangers as the two Scottish teams are on a different level. There's no Atletico, Valencia or Deportivo La Coruna to pop up and win a Scottish PL title. As for the economical strength of Barca and Real compared to Celtic and Rangers or English clubs, this is a new thing. In 1990 Glasgow Rangers was the wealthiest non-Italian club in the world. When the Premier League was started in 1992, it was because English clubs felt they could not measure with Serie A clubs economically. No mention of Spain. Not until the early 00s did Real and Barca have the same or more financial power as the English or Italian top clubs. The continual strength of Real and Barca has tradtionally been built on other things (youth academies) than economical strength.

Agree that they dont know how to deal with the new situation, but they will come again as they are - as of now - still superior when it comes to producing world class youth talent.

TLDR: the attraction is in the quality of football and the way (youth academies) this quality is maintained. But obviously it is highly subjective, not everyone finds that "attractive".

 

[Swansman]

This could start a chain reaction as OGS at Utd is precarious and Manure might feel they need to get in quick to get the best manager rather than let Barca get there first.

There wont be a reaction like that since they will be looking for entirely different things in a manager.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

Potter to Barcelona?

Well someone had too.

Haha, I expect the Argus will be on it now.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They have the fourth or fifth best squad in La Liga. Real Madrid, Atletico, Sevilla, Real Sociedad, Bilbao and perhaps even Betis all look stronger and more well balanced. The Barca team is mainly a few past-it veterans with a bunch of very promising 17-19 year olds.

That was also the case last season. A single quality player can do a bunch of good, and Messi is beyond that. At least one of his four or five doubters on the planet labelled his success a result of the overall quality of the Barca team. Well, last season he didnt play in a particularly strong side, still scored 30 goals and made some 20 assists. He is just obscene. Of course they were going to miss him.

And of course people are going to have no interest in this: they attacked Koemans car in the street last week. In a year that will be Xavis car. People think "we are Barca and should be winning everything" rather than "we are Barca and this is what we can expect from this squad."



What attracts me to La Liga is generally the quality of the football. In the last 20 years the league has usually been stronger than the PL from the top teams to the bottom ones. Only in recent years with economical trouble has there been a change to this and England might overtake the position as the best league completely and permanently-ish if it continues to improve its youth academies.

La Liga is not that much more of a two or three horse race than the PL, the difference is really only that two horses compete permanently while English clubs in the past has often shat themselves after a period of domination. When only Manchester United and Arsenal could win the PL, there were four clubs that could win La Liga. Today only City, Chelsea or Liverpool could win the PL, while La Liga is a lot more unpredictable.

Its not fair to compare with Celtic and Rangers as the two Scottish teams are on a different level. There's no Atletico, Valencia or Deportivo La Coruna to pop up and win a Scottish PL title. As for the economical strength of Barca and Real compared to Celtic and Rangers or English clubs, this is a new thing. In 1990 Glasgow Rangers was the wealthiest non-Italian club in the world. When the Premier League was started in 1992, it was because English clubs felt they could not measure with Serie A clubs economically. No mention of Spain. Not until the early 00s did Real and Barca have the same or more financial power as the English or Italian top clubs. The continual strength of Real and Barca has tradtionally been built on other things (youth academies) than economical strength.

Agree that they dont know how to deal with the new situation, but they will come again as they are - as of now - still superior when it comes to producing world class youth talent.

TLDR: the attraction is in the quality of football and the way (youth academies) this quality is maintained. But obviously it is highly subjective, not everyone finds that "attractive".

Not as reflected by attendances. And attendances are much more important in La Liga because the TV money is nearly all stolen by the top two. I can recall looking up La Liga attendances a few years ago and the average for one team was below 10,000. That's tier three average in England, and with even less incope because ticket prices are higher here. With more average income you can expect better players on average.

Here are the bottom 12 average attendances for La Liga last year.



And here is the EPL for this season so far:



I have watched a bit of lower table La Liga (not recently, admittedly) and it looked like monkey tennis to me

 

[Swansman]

Not as reflected by attendances. And attendances are much more important in La Liga because the TV money is nearly all stolen by the top two. I can recall looking up La Liga attendances a few years ago and the average for one team was below 10,000. That's tier three average in England, and with even less incope because ticket prices are higher here. With more average income you can expect better players on average.

Here are the bottom 12 average attendances for La Liga last year.

View attachment 141645

And here is the EPL for this season so far:

View attachment 141646

I have watched a bit of lower table La Liga (not recently, admittedly) and it looked like monkey tennis to me

Not sure when the La Liga numbers are from but its not last year as most teams had an average attendance of 0.

Anyway, its true that attendances are lower in La Liga for multiple reasons:
- England is a richer country than Spain. People have more money to spend on entertainment.
- Spain is 4x the size of England and also more night cames, which impacts away following (pretty much not a thing in Spain).
- Due to the economical difference between PL and La Liga, most stadiums in Spain are comparatively old and not particularly welcoming.

So yes they have lower attendances and most clubs get less money from TV deals. In short: the clubs are economically poorer.

But big wallets doesnt necessarily mean better footballers. Rob Sanchez is probably the cheapest starting keeper in the Premier League, it doesnt make him the worst. Spain is producing absurd numbers of competent footballers, which could be seen from their export, and while it indicates a continuous drain it also indicates that the production is endless and competition fierce. How La Liga players, as Cucurella is showing, could quite easily go from performing well in La Liga despite playing in a poor team to perform similar levels at Premier League also indicates there really isnt much of a gap, at least not the kind of gap the wallets indicate there should be.

It is very difficult to measure though as bottom clubs from England rarely play bottom clubs from Spain and same with mid-table teams. I also think it is changing due to La Liga getting weaker and Premier League stronger for a variety of reasons (money, non-EU player limits and improvement of English academies). Ten years ago I would have been dead certain that a mid table or bottom team in Spain would have quite a nice day playing against English equivalents. Today I'm less certain but still... if the 9th placed team (Barcelona) in the Spanish league would go up against the 9th placed team in PL (Leicester), I wouldnt really expect the latter to stomp them..

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not sure when the La Liga numbers are from but its not last year as most teams had an average attendance of 0.

Anyway, its true that attendances are lower in La Liga for multiple reasons:
- England is a richer country than Spain. People have more money to spend on entertainment.
- Spain is 4x the size of England and also more night cames, which impacts away following (pretty much not a thing in Spain).
- Due to the economical difference between PL and La Liga, most stadiums in Spain are comparatively old and not particularly welcoming.

So yes they have lower attendances and most clubs get less money from TV deals. In short: the clubs are economically poorer.

But big wallets doesnt necessarily mean better footballers. Rob Sanchez is probably the cheapest starting keeper in the Premier League, it doesnt make him the worst. Spain is producing absurd numbers of competent footballers, which could be seen from their export, and while it indicates a continuous drain it also indicates that the production is endless and competition fierce. How La Liga players, as Cucurella is showing, could quite easily go from performing well in La Liga despite playing in a poor team to perform similar levels at Premier League also indicates there really isnt much of a gap, at least not the kind of gap the wallets indicate there should be.

It is very difficult to measure though as bottom clubs from England rarely play bottom clubs from Spain and same with mid-table teams. I also think it is changing due to La Liga getting weaker and Premier League stronger for a variety of reasons (money, non-EU player limits and improvement of English academies). Ten years ago I would have been dead certain that a mid table or bottom team in Spain would have quite a nice day playing against English equivalents. Today I'm less certain but still... if the 9th placed team (Barcelona) in the Spanish league would go up against the 9th placed team in PL (Leicester), I wouldnt really expect the latter to stomp them..

Or the best.

Anyway, we shall never know the answer to this as it is untestable

 

[rogersix]

I always felt Hyypia might have had a teeny tiny chance had the club convinced Stephen Ward to stay.

er, no

 

[Bry Nylon]

I guess Dean Smith is finding out the painful way just how instrumental his free-kick vending machine was to Villa.

Yes, £100m to reinvest softens the blow but they don't carry anything like the threat they have in previous seasons and have lost their last 3.

 

[Scappa]

Mildly amused to see that Arteta has ruled himself out out for the vacancy. I suppose it saves him disappointment further down the line