[Politics] Keir Starmer

[Weststander]

Starmer isn't everyones cup of tea, but nor is Biden in America. This time it's not about personality but forcing change. The end of demagogues, divide and conquer, and a Tory party who only stand for wealth inequality and Plutocracy

I really like Biden.

The more right wing obsessives spit feathers about him with their zzzzz tales, the more I like him.

 

[Seagull27]

"Non-profit making" in the charitable sense doesn't mean that it doesn't have a surplus. It means that that surplus has to remain in the charity and cannot be distributed as profit for shareholders or owners.

That's the point though, isn't it? The VAT segment of the surplus shouldn't go back into the charity, only to the benefit of those who attend the school - it should go into the public purse.

Once VAT is extracted, they can do what they want with their surplus.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

What work does Roedean do in the state sector?

Funnily enough, we had an email about some of the stuff they're doing last night. There are currently fourteen projects including working as classroom assistants at Downs View Special School, three projects at St. Marks Primary (including building a library), working with the Blind Veterans, supporting special needs kids at Chailey Heritage Foundation, musical foundation work at several old people's homes, Community cooking courses at various state schools, and the latest initiative is having 90 primary school kids a week from state schools coming in to Roedean for lessons with the Year 12 group.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

You say the fees you pay are no where near the £40k quoted but a weekly boarder at Roedean is paying between £33k and £36k so not too far off. I'm guessing your kids are day pupils so of course that will be a lot cheaper.

So the most expensive possible place (without any kind of bursary) still isn't £40k. The vast majority (probably 99%) of the full-boarders are from abroad - mainly Hong Kong.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

So the most expensive possible place (without any kind of bursary) still isn't £40k. The vast majority (probably 99%) of the full-boarders are from abroad - mainly Hong Kong.

In itself, that seems an excellent argument for removing charitable funding.
Incidentally, relating to how they help the state sector, if I remember correctly my excellent top set maths teacher left to teach at Roedean when I was in year 9.
Presumably he was fed up with teaching a top set where all but about 5 people were on the foundation paper
(Disclaimer - this was a while ago and he may have gone somewhere else, but the underlying point is sound).

 

[Stumpy Tim]

In itself, that seems an excellent argument for removing charitable funding.
Incidentally, relating to how they help the state sector, if I remember correctly my excellent top set maths teacher left to teach at Roedean when I was in year 9.
Presumably he was fed up with teaching a top set where all but about 5 people were on the foundation paper
(Disclaimer - this was a while ago and he may have gone somewhere else, but the underlying point is sound).

Well the foreign students spend £37k a year in the UK rather than elsewhere, and of course also spend the year shopping in Brighton. Seems like quite a useful revenue stream to me.

As I said up-front, I'm not for or against the scrapping of charitable status. My main point is that the perception of all private schools are all like Eton is wrong... the vast majority are nothing like that. Also, these schools do put back into the community as part of that charitable status so we can expect that to stop. Hence it will negatively affect other parts of society.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Well the foreign students spend £37k a year in the UK rather than elsewhere, and of course also spend the year shopping in Brighton. Seems like quite a useful revenue stream to me.

As I said up-front, I'm not for or against the scrapping of charitable status. My main point is that the perception of all private schools are all like Eton is wrong... the vast majority are nothing like that. Also, these schools do put back into the community as part of that charitable status so we can expect that to stop. Hence it will negatively affect other parts of society.

That's a fair point, although plenty of overseas students go to state schools or colleges (I never quite understood why anybody would travel halfway around the world to study A level economics at Lewes 6th Form, but that suggests I wasn't paying enough attention in the class).
I think the help they do for the community should be an obligation rather than a justification for charitable funding.

 

[beorhthelm]

In itself, that seems an excellent argument for removing charitable funding.
Incidentally, relating to how they help the state sector, if I remember correctly my excellent top set maths teacher left to teach at Roedean when I was in year 9.
Presumably he was fed up with teaching a top set where all but about 5 people were on the foundation paper
(Disclaimer - this was a while ago and he may have gone somewhere else, but the underlying point is sound).

occured to me VAT not applicable for those overseas.
also once VAT registered, they'll be able to claim back VAT on all the goods and services brought in. i wonder what the net will be in the final count.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

That's a fair point, although plenty of overseas students go to state schools or colleges (I never quite understood why anybody would travel halfway around the world to study A level economics at Lewes 6th Form, but that suggests I wasn't paying enough attention in the class).
I think the help they do for the community should be an obligation rather than a justification for charitable funding.

Why should it be an obligation if they're a business? It should be an obligation if they're a charity, not if they're a business

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Why should it be an obligation if they're a business? It should be an obligation if they're a charity, not if they're a business

If they were a charity it would just be what they do, rather than something they do on the side to make us like them more.
Most businesses have obligations as to how they behave, relevant to their particular area.
In this case, since private schools take (to varying degrees) resources from the state sector in terms of teachers etc., and their facilities occupy land that could (in principle) be put to alternative use, I don't see it as unreasonable that we require some engagement with the wider community.

 

[dsr-burnley]

occured to me VAT not applicable for those overseas.
also once VAT registered, they'll be able to claim back VAT on all the goods and services brought in. i wonder what the net will be in the final count.

I think if a service is provided in this country, then VAT is chargeable regardless of where the person lives.

However, a lot of this thread is still missing the point. Schools' VAT exempt status is not because they are registered charities. Even registered charities have to charge VAT on sales, eg. the Injured Jockeys Fund is VAT registered because it has a commercial arm that makes profits for the charity and the government collects 20% of its VAT-registered sales.

The reason schools do not charge VAT is because the government determines that education is an exempt supply for VAT purposes. The same applies to profit making organisations, including probably a few schools, and certainly private tutors - they are not charities but they still don't charge VAT on their fees.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

If they were a charity it would just be what they do, rather than something they do on the side to make us like them more.
Most businesses have obligations as to how they behave, relevant to their particular area.
In this case, since private schools take (to varying degrees) resources from the state sector in terms of teachers etc., and their facilities occupy land that could (in principle) be put to alternative use, I don't see it as unreasonable that we require some engagement with the wider community.

Well I don't agree with that at all. Most businesses, certainly the size of these schools, don't offer community programs etc. Why would a school be any different? My company takes people who could be working in the state sector, but there is no obligation on us to do anything.

I would also say the schools don't do these things to make people like them more... they do them as they're a registered charity and are obligated to. How many people knew about the work Roedean are doing in the community? It's not something they talk about because their customer is the parents of children - and parents are paying fees to provide a good level of education, and don't really care about the wider community work. Hence schools advertise their results and pastoral care, not community work

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Well I don't agree with that at all. Most businesses, certainly the size of these schools, don't offer community programs etc. Why would a school be any different? My company takes people who could be working in the state sector, but there is no obligation on us to do anything.

I would also say the schools don't do these things to make people like them more... they do them as they're a registered charity and are obligated to. How many people knew about the work Roedean are doing in the community? It's not something they talk about because their customer is the parents of children - and parents are paying fees to provide a good level of education, and don't really care about the wider community work. Hence schools advertise their results and pastoral care, not community work

A company won't necessarily do community work, but it will have to behave in a certain way. My job would be a lot easier if I could just throw a load of steel over a river and call it a bridge, but I'm quite reasonably required to think about how that bridge will work for the people who live nearby / the environment. That's the equivalent of what I'm talking about in the context of my job.
If you're running a school which has the facilities/staff, then I think some level and form of wider outreach is a reasonable requirement.
Private schools compete for staff directly with the state sector in a way that is not generally replicated in other industries. In other situations where a private organisation is competing directly with a public service for resources, I'd make the same argument.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

A company won't necessarily do community work, but it will have to behave in a certain way. My job would be a lot easier if I could just throw a load of steel over a river and call it a bridge, but I'm quite reasonably required to think about how that bridge will work for the people who live nearby / the environment. That's the equivalent of what I'm talking about in the context of my job.
If you're running a school which has the facilities/staff, then I think some level and form of wider outreach is a reasonable requirement.
Private schools compete for staff directly with the state sector in a way that is not generally replicated in other industries. In other situations where a private organisation is competing directly with a public service for resources, I'd make the same argument.

Schools are expected to behave in a certain way. They're not allowed to smack pupils (anymore), they must teach a certain number of hours of particular subjects etc. That's their equivalent of you not throwing steel into a river.

I don't think we're going to agree on it to be honest

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I assume that anyone who want rid of private schools would also get rid of private healthcare - often provided by employers?

Personally (my son went to a State Secondary Modern School) people should be allowed to spend their money however they chose, be that education, healthcare, overseas holidays, new cars, bigger houses etc.

Removing charitable status is much more of a statement to keep the left of his Party onside by Starmer than a money raiser as it will cost a lot of money to integrate kids who move from private to State schools.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Schools are expected to behave in a certain way. They're not allowed to smack pupils (anymore), they must teach a certain number of hours of particular subjects etc. That's their equivalent of you not throwing steel into a river.

I don't think we're going to agree on it to be honest

Clearly
I spend far too long having to deal with people trying to squeeze every last drop of public utility out of something that could be quite simple, not to want that inflicted on other people.
To be clear, when we have the work experience kids in, I'm not allowed to hit them either. We're not even allowed to give them menial tasks like filing or compiling a PDF anymore .

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Schools are expected to behave in a certain way. They're not allowed to smack pupils (anymore), they must teach a certain number of hours of particular subjects etc.

Incidentally, can private schools not set their own curriculum? I went to university with somebody who went to one of those schools where the pupils got to decide what they did, but I'm not sure if that was in Britain. I was vaguely under the impression those rules only applied to state schools.

 

[Stumpy Tim]

Incidentally, can private schools not set their own curriculum? I went to university with somebody who went to one of those schools where the pupils got to decide what they did, but I'm not sure if that was in Britain. I was vaguely under the impression those rules only applied to state schools.

My daughter is choosing her GCSE options right now, and it seems to be exactly the same as state schools. Must have a language, must do science, maths, english etc.

 

[cloud]

it will cost a lot of money to integrate kids who move from private to State schools.

Chances are that they won't move to a state school though, the parents will absorb the extra cost by going into more debt or remortgaging

The only winners will be the banks.

 

[beorhthelm]

Chances are that they won't move to a state school though, the parents will absorb the extra cost by going into more debt or remortgaging

The only winners will be the banks.

winners will be us, from all the extra teachers funded from the revenue raised of course. thats what it is intended to do after all.