[Politics] Keir Starmer

[erkan]

They can't ban public schools full stop, because the richer ones (boarding schools) would move abroad. They would be able to close the cheaper end of the market, and the day schools.

Private education could be effectively closed down in this country. If some lunatic mega-rich parents chose to send their kids abroad to go to school then yes I suppose you're right that would be hard to stop. The biggest factor would be UK state schools becoming good enough so that the incentive to do that was massively reduced.

 

[jackalbion]

Absolute hogwash.

I know of many working class parents making massive personal financial sacrifices to send their child/children to an independent school. Prices going up 20% will force many normal folk out of the market.

I DO hope Sir Kneel enjoyed his spell at Reigate Grammar School.

Reigate FEES

What is Working Class though? Isn't all this definition of classes a load of crap really. People in this country are obsessed with the idea that they are working class. Someone who is an electrician could easily earn more than I do, and I'm university educated and work an office job, are they working class and I'm not? Its all just nonsense, if you can afford to even put money aside to send a child to a fee-paying school you are well off.

 

[WATFORD zero]

That depends on how you define a subsidy. I didn't pay VAT on my dinner today, but I wouldn't say it was subsidised. And I bet if VAT rose to 25%, there wouldn't be great approval for the government for increasing food subsidies by 5% across the board.

When it was the "tampon tax", the argument was that the government shouldn't be taxing women's sanitary products. They weren't suggesting that the products were on sale at normal prices and the women wanted subsidies. They wanted the abolition of the tax.

Absence of business rates sounds like a subsidy, though. How much is that?

If my business had a special agreement from the Government not to pay VAT or business rates, then the Government would be subsidising my business, completely regardless of what you had for lunch

 

[Titanic]

Maybe he will when he's in power. Maybe he'll do a lot of the things which got him into the labour party in the first place.

At the moment, his job is to not give the tories a sniff. It's the football equivalent of ignoring a 4 against 1 and running the ball into the corner in stoppage time when you've got a lead.

Dull? yes
Pragmatic? yes.

But it gives him the best chance at maximising that majority. The tory press with come at him ferociously and he's wise not to underestimate their power.

Are you suggesting that Labour would do something as radical as abolishing private schools, without it being in their manifesto at the General Election?

 

[erkan]

Are you suggesting that Labour would do something as radical as abolishing private schools, without it being in their manifesto at the General Election?

Did Thatcher have it in her manifesto that she was going to put 3m on the dole as an economic policy?

 

[beorhthelm]

Private education could be effectively closed down in this country. If some lunatic mega-rich parents chose to send their kids abroad to go to school then yes I suppose you're right that would be hard to stop. The biggest factor would be UK state schools becoming good enough so that the incentive to do that was massively reduced.

it would be an interesting proposal, add upto £4bn to the education budget for zero benefit.

its good the really important issues are being talked about though.

 

[Titanic]

Did Thatcher have it in her manifesto that she was going to put 3m on the dole as an economic policy?

I don't know... but you can read it here:

Conservative General Election Manifesto 1979 | Margaret Thatcher Foundation

www.margaretthatcher.org

 

[nicko31]

because you haven't thought on what the problem is. first, its a popular political football of the left, that most centre ground dont care about, triggering the right (even those never considered going private). second, Sunak went to private school so its a direct dig at him. with that lens its a fine solution.

Interesting Sunak donated £100k to Winchester College, pity he couldn't have found a more needy charity...

 

[erkan]

it would be an interesting proposal, add upto £4bn to the education budget for zero benefit.

its good the really important issues are being talked about though.

Strange definition of "zero benefit". And if you don't think this is an important issue then you haven't got a clue about how much influence private education has on the lives of people in this country.

 

[beorhthelm]

Strange definition of "zero benefit". And if you don't think this is an important issue then you haven't got a clue about how much influence private education has on the lives of people in this country.

so explain what would be the benefit of abolishing all private schools.

 

[CHAPPERS]

because you haven't thought on what the problem is. first, its a popular political football of the left, that most centre ground dont care about, triggering the right (even those never considered going private). second, Sunak went to private school so its a direct dig at him. with that lens its a fine solution.

A popular political football of the left…and Michael Gove.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

it would be an interesting proposal, add upto £4bn to the education budget for zero benefit.

its good the really important issues are being talked about though.

What? By making private schools pay their fair amount of tax?

Private schools masquerade as charities allowing massive tax avoidance, all legal and approved by the tories

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't know... but you can read it here:

Conservative General Election Manifesto 1979 | Margaret Thatcher Foundation

www.margaretthatcher.org

Nothing there about privatizing f***ing everything:

NATIONALISATION

The British people strongly oppose Labour's plans to nationalise yet more firms and industries such as building, banking, insurance, pharmaceuticals and road haulage. More nationalisation would further impoverish us and further undermine our freedom. We will offer to sell back to private ownership the recently nationalised aerospace and shipbuilding concerns, giving their employees the opportunity to purchase shares.

We aim to sell shares in the National Freight Corporation to the general public in order to achieve substantial private investment in it. We will also relax the Traffic Commissioner licensing regulations to enable new bus and other services to develop-particularly in rural areas-and we will encourage new private operators.

 

[beorhthelm]

What? By making private schools pay their fair amount of tax?

Private schools masquerade as charities allowing massive tax avoidance, all legal and approved by the tories

you've missed what i was replying to, not the VAT, the suggestion to abolish all private schools. 600k pupils at £6700 (current cost per pupil) means potentially £4bn cost. minus those that leave the country, its a starting point.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Please elaborate.

Reigate Grammar School went independent in 1976, whilst Keir Starmer (born 1962) was a pupil ( 1974 to 1981).
He got there on merit, and existing pupils didn't have to pay school fees.

Clear enough, for you? You have been told this several times before, but still think it is a dig at the Labour leader.

 

[Titanic]

Nothing there about privatizing f***ing everything:

NATIONALISATION

The British people strongly oppose Labour's plans to nationalise yet more firms and industries such as building, banking, insurance, pharmaceuticals and road haulage. More nationalisation would further impoverish us and further undermine our freedom. We will offer to sell back to private ownership the recently nationalised aerospace and shipbuilding concerns, giving their employees the opportunity to purchase shares.

We aim to sell shares in the National Freight Corporation to the general public in order to achieve substantial private investment in it. We will also relax the Traffic Commissioner licensing regulations to enable new bus and other services to develop-particularly in rural areas-and we will encourage new private operators.

Didn't the major 'privatisations' come after the 1983 election?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'm not sure it about forcing much change at all with Biden or Starmer. I think the majority of the electorate view them both as a pause button to stop further damage being done.

I don't think for one minute the lead Labour have in the polls in a reflection on how better Labour would be. It's clearly a reflection on how appalling the Tories are.

The penny has clearly dropped over here as it did in the USA. Like the Republicans the Tory party as not as we know it.

If only the conspiracy theorists would focus on the obvious and look into how the traditional right of centre parties have been taken over by something quite different.

Unfortunately this new right wing has them gripped by the bollocks and ironically they are are part of the conspiracy themselves.

Exactly. Several back bench Tory MPs have already announced they won't be standing for election, whenever it is called. It is getting too right wing for even them, and that's without the 21 that Johnson disenfranchised back in 2019.

 

[erkan]

so explain what would be the benefit of abolishing all private schools.

Private schools are not just a form of educational privilege, but a way of socially segregating classes from a young age.

Schools are a formative place for children, in which they come to understand themselves and learn to interact with one another. Ensuring children are not socialised to know people of different backgrounds facilitates wilful ignorance and elitism. There is a direct correlation between this entrenched division and some of the most toxic elements of our political culture. Private schools create a self-enforcing echo chamber in which young people learn to turn a blind eye to the inequalities within the UK today.

The abolition of private schools would not immediately destroy hundreds of years of generational privilege and wealth in the UK. It would, however, disrupt a very specific form of social segregation and exclusion. In preventing the physical and immediate separation of children there would be hope for building better communities.

Private schools are intended to operate as a separating power between classes — and they are successful at this. Abolishing them would challenge this and disrupt the dehumanisation of the working class that the separation facilitates.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Are you suggesting that Labour would do something as radical as abolishing private schools, without it being in their manifesto at the General Election?

All they need to do is abolish their charitable status so they have to pay appropriate tax.

I'm a Labour member and would not advocate abolishing private education - or health.

But they should not be subsidised by the tax payer.

Take medicine. In this country the fees for being a medical student in no way pay for the costs of the training. Once you graduate you can work part time in a private clinic (I know loads of young medics who do this). Once you become a consultant you can spend as much of your time as you like doing private practice.

I believe that British medicals schools should be here to train people to work in the NHS. It isn't as if the pay is bad - the path to consultant is now paved, and even GPs earn silly money.

How to implement? Even labour is reluctant to get students to sign contracts binding them to work in the NHS, even for a limited period. I would change this. Ten years, perhaps.

At the same time, private clinics should be subjected to the same rules as NHS facilities. Where I work, masses of bureaucracy has been brought in by successive governments to ensure 'value for money' with complicated tendering processes, approved vendors and masses of paperwork, with large elements of the system now privatized (from cleaning to parking and lots of other stuff in between).

I was referred by the NHS to a private hospital recently. You could smell the difference. But the clinic has the 'freedom' to select its most profitable trajectory. The care it provides is limited, and the awkward and expensive work is not done there. That's dumped on the NHS hospitals. I had an MRI scan. Twenty minute job. I am now having to wait 8 weeks for the results (the scans will need to be examined by an NHS doctor, and the backlog is massive).

Bottom line, the tories have created a lovely landscape that allows private competition with public services, arranged so the private companies can maximise profits, offer only profitable services, and (as with schools) dodge loads of tax. This has to stop. Level playing field please!

 

[dsr-burnley]

Private schools are not just a form of educational privilege, but a way of socially segregating classes from a young age.

Schools are a formative place for children, in which they come to understand themselves and learn to interact with one another. Ensuring children are not socialised to know people of different backgrounds facilitates wilful ignorance and elitism. There is a direct correlation between this entrenched division and some of the most toxic elements of our political culture. Private schools create a self-enforcing echo chamber in which young people learn to turn a blind eye to the inequalities within the UK today.

The abolition of private schools would not immediately destroy hundreds of years of generational privilege and wealth in the UK. It would, however, disrupt a very specific form of social segregation and exclusion. In preventing the physical and immediate separation of children there would be hope for building better communities.

Private schools are intended to operate as a separating power between classes — and they are successful at this. Abolishing them would challenge this and disrupt the dehumanisation of the working class that the separation facilitates.

Grammar schools, on the other hand, were ways of getting children of different backgrounds to mix while at the same time providing an excellent education, as Keir Starmer found. (Though of course they too fell victim to the "levelling down" strategy of the sixties and seventies.)