Katyn massacre

[London Calling]

not wishing to denigrate the contribution of polish people to winning the second world war, but who sees them as the most heroic pilots in the battle of britain ? as far as i am concerned they were all equally heroic,and as for defending british troops at dunkirk , well they were in the RAF, why wouldnt they ? or are you suggesting they should have only flown to defend polish troops ? as for the russian invasion of poland , can you give me any sensible suggestions as to what we could have done about it? dont forget at the time the russians and germans were allies due to the molotov/von ribbentrop pact.

Actually, their achievements man for man, ranked above British pilots.

We could have dropped off supplies and reinforcements to the POles, we asked them to fight to buy time for us and France but did nothing to help.

In 1941, I cannot see why we could not have demanded Russia to leave Poland and all claims to Poland. Lest us not forget we had diplomatic relations with Russia throughout the period.

Obviously Russia withdraw, more to protect their motherland.

We certainly exploited the good will of the Poles, the article above highlights for such a small army, they fought everywhere.

We can't cut our cake bothways, we either fought fpor Poland, then you stand by them. Or we didn't fight for Poland, then don't exploit them.

As said above we also over appeased Russia, especually the Americans who we know now and probably knew then were cutting deals with Russia and undermining not only the UK but Europe and basically gave tactic support for their taking over Eastern Europe.

Perverse, you fight off one tyrant to let the next one rule.

 

[User removed 4]

Actually, their achievements man for man, ranked above British pilots.

We could have dropped off supplies and reinforcements to the POles, we asked them to fight to buy time for us and France but did nothing to help.

In 1941, I cannot see why we could not have demanded Russia to leave Poland and all claims to Poland. Lest us not forget we had diplomatic relations with Russia throughout the period.

Obviously Russia withdraw, more to protect their motherland.

We certainly exploited the good will of the Poles, the article above highlights for such a small army, they fought everywhere.

We can't cut our cake bothways, we either fought fpor Poland, then you stand by them. Or we didn't fight for Poland, then don't exploit them.

As said above we also over appeased Russia, especually the Americans who we know now and probably knew then were cutting deals with Russia and undermining not only the UK but Europe and basically gave tactic support for their taking over Eastern Europe.

Perverse, you fight off one tyrant to let the next one rule.

i wont argue with much of your post LC, but dropping off supplies and reinforcements ?? given our aviation capabilities at the time , this is pure amateurish fantasy.

 

[London Calling]

i wont argue with much of your post LC, but dropping off supplies and reinforcements ?? given our aviation capabilities at the time , this is pure amateurish fantasy.

requests were made and we certainly consider it. TBH I am in guessing land here? Could our navy/ airforce combined with their navy reached ports or key airfields.

Edited :

It appears not of amateurish fantasy!

I didn't know this but "First allied supplies of equipment, ammunition and weaponry for Poland reached Romanian ports in Constanza and Galati on 16th of September 1939 - Polish envoys were send to Romania on that day to receive them."

and Polish warships with cargo ships had set out to Poland before it capitulated!!!






Also goes to show how, our balance between preparation and appeasement was wrong. Though that's not a new thought.

Coming back to my opening post, I thought I knew about WW2 and WW1.

These events and others posted shows me how little I know and probably how little citizens of the UK actually really knew or appreciated.

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

i wont argue with much of your post LC, but dropping off supplies and reinforcements ?? given our aviation capabilities at the time , this is pure amateurish fantasy.

We were making aviaiton drops into the Russian army throughout 1944-45 as well as by sea. The British Government were caught on the hop by the Warsaw Uprising although they shouldnt have been...... yet they could have diverted supplies away from the Russian to the Poles... they didn't... well they did but very little and most of it wayward. In mitigation, I think Davies says that the precise location of drops was impossible because of the constantly changing scenario on the ground.

 

[London Calling]

We were making aviaiton drops into the Russian army throughout 1944-45 as well as by sea. The British Government were caught on the hop by the Warsaw Uprising although they shouldnt have been...... yet they could have diverted supplies away from the Russian to the Poles... they didn't... well they did but very little and most of it wayward. In mitigation, I think Davies says that the precise location of drops was impossible because of the constantly changing scenario on the ground.

Didn't we start supplying arms and planes to Russia from 41!

In total 78 ships made their way to and from North Russia carrying 4 million tonnes of supplies - food, tanks and aircraft to be used in the battle against Nazis on the Eastern Front.

 

[simmo]

Katyn massacre

This is about the 1940 massacre of Polish officers. For more details on this topic, see Polish prisoners of war in Soviet Union (after 1939).


I never knew about this until picking it up during the Stalin- Churchill prog on Monday evening, the hyprocrisy of our and the US Government was totally amazing.


Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army during the Soviet invasion of Poland

The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre was a mass execution of Polish military officers, policemen, intellectuals and civilian prisoners of war, based on a proposal from Beria (Soviet head of Military Police and NKVD) to murder all members the Polish Officer Corps date March 5, 1940.

This official document was then approved (signed) by the entire Soviet Politburo including Stalin and Beria. The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, with the most commonly cited number of 21,768.

The victims were murdered in the Katyn forest in Russia, the Kalinin (Tver) and Kharkiv prisons and elsewhere.

About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials." .

Since Poland's conscription system required every unexempted university graduate to become a reserve officer, the Soviets were able to round up much of the Polish intelligentsia, and the Jewish, Ukrainian, Georgian and Belarusian intelligentsia of Polish citizenship.

Originally, "Katyn massacre" referred to the massacre at Katyn Forest, near the villages of Katyn and Gnezdovo (ca. 19 km west of Smolensk, Russia), of Polish military officers in the Kozelsk prisoner-of-war camp. It now is applied to the simultaneous executions of POWs from geographically distant Starobelsk and Ostashkov camps, and the executions of political prisoners from West Belarus and West Ukraine,shot on Stalin's orders at Katyn Forest, at the NKVD (Narodny Komissariat Vnutrennikh Del, the Soviet secret police) headquarters in Smolensk, at a Smolensk slaughterhouse, and at prisons in Kalinin (Tver), Kharkiv, Moscow, and other Soviet cities.

Nazi Germany announced the discovery of mass graves in the Katyn Forest in 1943. The revelation led to the break up of diplomatic relations between Moscow and the London-based Polish government-in-exile. The Soviet Union continued to deny the massacres until 1990, when it finally acknowledged the massacre by the NKVD, as well as the subsequent cover-up.

The Russian government admitted Soviet responsibility for the massacres, yet does not classify this action as a war crime or as an act of genocide.

Stalin gets a better press than Hitler in the West because the way that the cards fell in the 2nd World War he ended up on the winning side allied to Great Britain and the USA.

However, Stalin was as bad if not worse than Hitler. Life in his Soviet Russia was probably the worst in any country in the history of the world ever. No-one and I mean no-one was exempt from his persecution, top members of the politburo and the army were wiped out in the early 30's, down to the lowest peasent farmer, during collectivisation of the farms whom was executed for keeping 5 ears of corn for himself while his family starved because they had to give all their crops over to the state. It was because of Stalin's mental state of utter paranoia and concern about being toppled that led to this state of terror for everyone.

The booke Hitler/Stalin Parallel Lives by Alan Bullock is a good read and compares and contrasts them well. Idealogocially they were at the opposite ends of the spectrum. As individuals and dictators they were very much alike and two peas in a pod.

As for Poland their pilots were superb and absolutely heroic in the second world war and in particular the Battle of Britain. It is just a terrible tragedy of geography that places their country were it is between Russia (USSR) and Germany.

 

[User removed 4]

requests were made and we certainly consider it. TBH I am in guessing land here? Could our navy/ airforce combined with their navy reached ports or key airfields.

Well we certainll dismissed the concept and perhaps for everyone at that time, focussed on NO 1 and France.

Also goes to show how, our balance between preparation and appeasement was wrong. Though that's not a new thought.

Coming back to my opening post, I thought I knew about WW2 and WW1.

These events and others posted shows me how little I know and probably how little citizens of the UK actually really knew or appreciated.

what actually irritates me is the way the russians go on about the terrible losses they took in ww2, granted they did , but it was hardly voluntary , which ours was , they conveniently forget how they cosied up to the germans until hitler turned on them.

 

[User removed 4]

We were making aviaiton drops into the Russian army throughout 1944-45 as well as by sea. The British Government were caught on the hop by the Warsaw Uprising although they shouldnt have been...... yet they could have diverted supplies away from the Russian to the Poles... they didn't... well they did but very little and most of it wayward. In mitigation, I think Davies says that the precise location of drops was impossible because of the constantly changing scenario on the ground.

as you mention it was 1944/5 that drops were made to the russians when our aviation capabilites far exceeded what they were in 1939,the warsaw uprising was the jews in the ghetto rather than a general polish one,as for diverting supplies? after 5 long hard years of war , do you not think the general feeling and priority was to get it won , rather than diverting supplies away from people who wre giving the germans a bit of a shoeing ?

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

as you mention it was 1944/5 that drops were made to the russians when our aviation capabilites far exceeded what they were in 1939,the warsaw uprising was the jews in the ghetto rather than a general polish one,as for diverting supplies? after 5 long hard years of war , do you not think the general feeling and priority was to get it won , rather than diverting supplies away from people who wre giving the germans a bit of a shoeing ?

I think the point was that the POles wree about to give the Germans a MAJOR shoeing while the Russians were sitting on the other side of the Odra River waiting to see what was about to happen..... logic might suggest a deiaition of supplies was more advantageous the Brıtısh war effort at the time and send a clear mesage to Stalin to start playing around.

However Churchill was not keen to upset his cigar buddy.

 

[simmo]

what actually irritates me is the way the russians go on about the terrible losses they took in ww2, granted they did , but it was hardly voluntary , which ours was , they conveniently forget how they cosied up to the germans until hitler turned on them.

During times of conflict countries ally themselves with other regimes that oppose a common foe. Sometimes these "allies" may be as evil as the common enemy.

It is utterly naive to sit back 60 years later and say this shouldn't happen because Stalin was bad too. To be quite honest if you could have spoken to Churchill at the time and say that Stalin was as bad as Hitler, he would agree with you (he loathed both Stalin and communism) but his answer would be so what, the USSR are fighting (and eventually defeating) Hitler. This happens all the time. Strategic alliances are made, changed and broken (Japan and Italy were on our side in World War I). My enemies enemy is my friend will stand through the history of time.

Also you should not underestimate the skill, determination and fighting ability of the ordinary Soviet soldier in the 2nd World War, the sacrifice they made was absolutely awesome and immense and to be quite honest the Soviet people made an unimaginable and unbelievable sacrifice.

Stalin was the one who made the pacts that you talk about and not the Soviet people. To say that the Soviets deserved it because they made a pact with Hitler is nonsence, it is also not correct to take the moral high ground over pacts broken or otherwise, Chamberlain signed the Munich pact with Hitler in 1938, which absolutely sold the Czechs hook line and sinker down the river to the Nazi's.

 

[User removed 4]

During times of conflict countries ally themselves with other regimes that oppose a common foe. Sometimes these "allies" may be as evil as the common enemy.

It is utterly naive to sit back 60 years later and say this shouldn't happen because Stalin was bad too. To be quite honest if you could have spoken to Churchill at the time and say that Stalin was as bad as Hitler, he would agree with you (he loathed both Stalin and communism) but his answer would be so what, the USSR are fighting (and eventually defeating) Hitler. This happens all the time. Strategic alliances are made, changed and broken (Japan and Italy were on our side in World War I). My enemies enemy is my friend will stand through the history of time.

Also you should not underestimate the skill, determination and fighting ability of the ordinary Soviet soldier in the 2nd World War, the sacrifice they made was absolutely awesome and immense and to be quite honest the Soviet people made an unimaginable and unbelievable sacrifice.

Stalin was the one who made the pacts that you talk about and not the Soviet people. To say that the Soviets deserved it because they made a pact with Hitler is nonsence, it is also not correct to take the moral high ground over pacts broken or otherwise, Chamberlain signed the Munich pact with Hitler in 1938, which absolutely sold the Czechs hook line and sinker down the river to the Nazi's.

you obviously havent read or undestood my post , the russians take the moral high ground over their losses,as though it is they that stood alone in 1939.

 

[London Calling]

The work undertaken by Beria, I refer to him in the opening post, is disturbing and shocking, as are other accounts of the Russians massacring there own people.

 

[simmo]

you obviously havent read or undestood my post , the russians take the moral high ground over their losses,as though it is they that stood alone in 1939.

It is not unique to the USSR/Russia. Most Hollywood films depict Americans and only Americans fighting the Nazis and I also think we to a similar effect do the same. Overseas airmen made up between 10% - 15% of the battle of Britain pilots. How many every day English man on the street knows that?

The Red Army did to nearly all intents and purposes take on the Wermacht alone (Britain and USA did though did defeat the German Navy, with basically nil support from the soviet navy and primarirly defeated the Luftwaffe). However, it was the Wermacht that was by far the best military component of Germany from 1939-1945.

Britain and the USA fought the Wermacht in the desert but the sheer scale was minimal compared to what was going on in the East. In the whole theatre of the desert the western allies took on around 5/10 divisions, wheras at Kursk the Russians took on 55/60 divisions. At Stalingrad alone the Red Army had more casualties than GB and the USA had for the whole war. 600,000 German soldiers either died or were taking into captivity at Stalingrad in 1942/3. By 1944-45 there would have been less than 600,000 German soldiers facing the Western allies along the whole of the Western front.

 

[London Calling]

It is not unique to the USSR/Russia. Most Hollywood films depict Americans and only Americans fighting the Nazis and I also think we to a similar effect do the same. Overseas airmen made up between 10% - 15% of the battle of Britain pilots. How many every day English man on the street knows that?

The Red Army did to nearly all intents and purposes take on the Wermacht alone (Britain and USA did though did defeat the German Navy, with basically nil support from the soviet navy and primarirly defeated the Luftwaffe). However, it was the Wermacht that was by far the best military component of Germany from 1939-1945.

Britain and the USA fought the Wermacht in the desert but the sheer scale was minimal compared to what was going on in the East. In the whole theatre of the desert the western allies took on around 5/10 divisions, wheras at Kursk the Russians took on 55/60 divisions. At Stalingrad alone the Red Army had more casualties than GB and the USA had for the whole war. 600,000 German soldiers either died or were taking into captivity at Stalingrad in 1942/3. By 1944-45 there would have been less than 600,000 German soldiers facing the Western allies along the whole of the Western front.

How many Germans did the Russians actually kill againgst the weather and the march back to Gerrmany?

In what other nation, would a million people die for one city? And the brutality of the Russians againgst there own in that city.........................

After saying that, whilst in Leningrad, I was particularly moved by the resistance there, I stayed opposite, a major line of defence of that city.

 

[simmo]

How many Germans did the Russians actually kill againgst the weather and the march back to Gerrmany?

In what other nation, would a million people die for one city? And the brutality of the Russians againgst there own in that city.........................

After saying that, whilst in Leningrad, I was particularly moved by the resistance there, I stayed opposite, a major line of defence of that city.

I am not quite sure what your point is?

Tens if not hundreds of thousands of German soldiers died because of the arrogance and poor planning of Hitler due to the fact that they didn't have winter weather clothes. No-one disputes that. However, all Hitler had to do was to see what happened to the Grand Armee about 100 years prevoiusly to see what could happen. My guess would be 2/3 million Germans would have been killed by the Red Army.

I am not sure what march back to Germany you are talking about. There was no march back. It was battles all the way from Moscow to Berlin that led to ultimate victory. There was just utter death and destruction all the way along the line.

I know that Stalin was utterly evil and I said that in my original post, in my opinion he is worse than Hitler but was lucky to be on the winning side. However, the Soviet people were unbelievably brave and made an incredible sacrifice in the 2nd World War and should not be bracketed with/as Stalin they do not deserve it. Wheras others, such as the French army in the 2nd World War, should be greeted with utter contempt!

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

I am not quite sure what your point is?

Tens if not hundreds of thousands of German soldiers died because of the arrogance and poor planning of Hitler due to the fact that they didn't have winter weather clothes. No-one disputes that. However, all Hitler had to do was to see what happened to the Grand Armee about 100 years prevoiusly to see what could happen. My guess would be 2/3 million Germans would have been killed by the Red Army.

I am not sure what march back to Germany you are talking about. There was no march back. It was battles all the way from Moscow to Berlin that led to ultimate victory. There was just utter death and destruction all the way along the line.

I know that Stalin was utterly evil and I said that in my original post, in my opinion he is worse than Hitler but was lucky to be on the winning side. However, the Soviet people were unbelievably brave and made an incredible sacrifice in the 2nd World War and should not be bracketed with/as Stalin they do not deserve it. Wheras others, such as the French army in the 2nd World War, should be greeted with utter contempt!

Cant disagree with you about the Russians. However, not sure if that is relevant to the thread. The bravery of Russians doesnt change the fact that the Poles didnt get the support they needed either form the Allies or the Russians (i.e. Stalin).... and that Stalin systematically ordered the murder of a large number of Polish officers to eliminate possible opposition.

 

[Hannibal smith]

To be quite honest if you could have spoken to Churchill at the time and say that Stalin was as bad as Hitler, he would agree with you (he loathed both Stalin and communism) but his answer would be so what, the USSR are fighting (and eventually defeating) Hitler. This happens all the time. Strategic alliances are made, changed and broken (Japan and Italy were on our side in World War I). My enemies enemy is my friend will stand through the history of time.

I think Churchill referred to this at the time. Was his comment 'If Hitler invaded Hell I'd consider making a pact with the devil' spoken with Stalin in mind?

 

[Dandyman]

Interesting points above. IMO if we want to proper view of inter-war and WW2 relations then the Treaty of Riga (1920), tthe German-Polish Non-aggression pact (1934) and the Munich agreement (1938) all need to be factored in. One reason for the Molotov pact was that from the Soviet viewpoint Britain and France had capitulated to the Nazis at Munich and clearly wanted Hitler to turn east to attack the USSR. For us to adopt the moral highground is probably a misreading of the traditional British attitude to Europe which for the last 200 or more years has been to oppose any one nation assuming a dominant position across the continent. Churchill was happy enough praising Italian fascism in the 1920's, it was mainly his ability to forecast where Hitler's ambitions would lead that lead him to oppose German fascism in the 1930's.

As aside total French losses (civillian and military) in WW2 are higher at 484,000 than ours at 450,400 although the very large loss of civillian life (267,000) in France does affect the overall figure.

 

[London Calling]

I am not quite sure what your point is?

Tens if not hundreds of thousands of German soldiers died because of the arrogance and poor planning of Hitler due to the fact that they didn't have winter weather clothes. No-one disputes that. However, all Hitler had to do was to see what happened to the Grand Armee about 100 years prevoiusly to see what could happen. My guess would be 2/3 million Germans would have been killed by the Red Army.

I am not sure what march back to Germany you are talking about. There was no march back. It was battles all the way from Moscow to Berlin that led to ultimate victory. There was just utter death and destruction all the way along the line.

I know that Stalin was utterly evil and I said that in my original post, in my opinion he is worse than Hitler but was lucky to be on the winning side. However, the Soviet people were unbelievably brave and made an incredible sacrifice in the 2nd World War and should not be bracketed with/as Stalin they do not deserve it. Wheras others, such as the French army in the 2nd World War, should be greeted with utter contempt!

I just wondered if you knew?

I was under the impression that separate to the fighting; the weather and the toil and the ill equip unsuitable uniforms of the German army - led to as many of their deaths.

The fact that German divisions alike the Russians were also unable to surrender, and when they did, as at Stalingrad. They were treated with the usual warm generiosity of the Soviet state.

 

[London Calling]

One reason for the Molotov pact was that from the Soviet viewpoint Britain and France had capitulated to the Nazis at Munich and clearly wanted Hitler to turn east to attack the USSR. For us to adopt the moral highground is probably a misreading of the traditional British attitude to Europe which for the last 200 or more years has been to oppose any one nation assuming a dominant position across the continent. Churchill was happy enough praising Italian fascism in the 1920's, it was mainly his ability to forecast where Hitler's ambitions would lead that lead him to oppose German fascism in the 1930's.

As we also had with the Spanish Republic. The first battle of WW2.