[News] Junior Doctors

[ShandyH]

Are junior doctors being reasonable asking for a 35% pay rise?

 

[Goldstone1976]

They claim that they’ve had a 26% real terms decrease since 2008; 35% puts them back to 2008 in real terms.

However, they’ve used RPI to calculate the 26%. The ONS uses CPI, which gives 17%. Also, 2008 just so happens to be the year you’d choose if you wanted to maximise the real terms decrease; coincidence? Probably not.

1st year medics make c£38kpa if you include the normal add-ins to basic salary. This rises substantially by the time you get to year 5. Mind you, the hours and shift patterns they work are brutal.

TL;DR? Dunno, really.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I would cut them more slack if they backed up the really badly treated. The nurses.

Unless you are a twat you will be on more than £100K after 6 or 7 years (of TRAINING). GPs are struggling because they are too daft to manage their practice (hence the massive long waiting lists, and with physios and nurse practitioners dealing with the excess, wtf?).

And the private practice options for senior registrars and consultants are an eye watering delight.

No, I am fully behind all who are suffering in the NHS. But not the doctors.

 

[Doonhamer7]

Totally behind nurses, paramedics Getting a big rise but most junior doctors can become consultants and end up on a fortune so struggle to be sympathetic towards their needs

 

[ShandyH]

RPI is a much better measure than CPI which is the one where they swap out steaks for burgers as an equivalent.

It is brutal work, there’s no doubt about that but a £60k annual pension and the earning potential from consultancy means a demand of 35%, compared to nurses, or anyone, could look a bit greedy. The hurdles have always been known.

 

[ShandyH]

I would cut them more slack if they backed up the really badly treated. The nurses.

Unless you are a twat you will be on more than £100K after 6 or 7 years (of TRAINING). GPs are struggling because they are too daft to manage their practice (hence the massive long waiting lists, and with physios and nurse practitioners dealing with the excess, wtf?).

And the private practice options for senior registrars and consultants are an eye watering delight.

No, I am fully behind all who are suffering in the NHS. But not the doctors.

Have they misread the room?

 

[beorhthelm]

35%, is that a real pay demand? doesn't seem remotely sensible. the biggest problem for doctors is hitting the life time pension limits, they do a few years on relatively low pay then supercharged. there will no doubt be some talk about pay worse than baristas (Mrs was on about this the other day), where they compare the 1st yr basic salary to a Starbucks manager, overlook the extra paid for out of hours work, specialism etc, which take basic pay up to mid 30's in first year.

 

[Weststander]

In addition to this, the defined benefit pension scheme is generous eg the NHS pay 21% equivalent of Mrs.W salary into her pension plan.

 

[clapham_gull]

They claim that they’ve had a 26% real terms decrease since 2008;

But an individual Junior Doctor could never have seen that decrease ? Unless they are in perpetual training >

 

[LamieRobertson]

Nah 50% be more reasonable

 

[Goldstone Guy]

I would cut them more slack if they backed up the really badly treated. The nurses.

Unless you are a twat you will be on more than £100K after 6 or 7 years (of TRAINING). GPs are struggling because they are too daft to manage their practice (hence the massive long waiting lists, and with physios and nurse practitioners dealing with the excess, wtf?).

And the private practice options for senior registrars and consultants are an eye watering delight.

No, I am fully behind all who are suffering in the NHS. But not the doctors.

GPs too daft to manage their practices? I know that you have experience in healthcare and research but you're way off on that one in my opinion (DOI I am a GP so clearly biased). Will try to continue discussion tonight if I have time.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

In addition to this, the defined benefit pension scheme is generous eg the NHS pay 21% equivalent of Mrs.W salary into her pension plan.

View attachment 158259View attachment 158260

The pension scheme applies to all NHS staff and is going through another iteration, to make up for the shortfall of clinical staff and encouraging them to return to work.

Medical staff (consultant etc), need to be careful pension wise as they end up with a ridiculous tax bill under the current scheme.

As for the junior Dr.s, everything @Harry Wilson's tackle said, in terms of future potential earnings.

Lots more sympathy with the nurses.

 

[Seagull27]

Not sure what a fair pay deal would be, but this is very concerning:

Four in 10 junior doctors in the UK plan to leave the NHS as soon as they can find another job, show the results of a survey conducted by the BMA over the past two months.

A third (33%) said that they planned to work in another country within the next 12 months, with Australia and New Zealand the most favoured destinations (42% and 20%, respectively), followed by the Middle East (9%), Canada and Europe (excluding the UK) (9%), and the US (5%).

A third of junior doctors plan to leave NHS to work abroad in next 12 months

Four in 10 junior doctors in the UK plan to leave the NHS as soon as they can find another job, show the results of a survey conducted by the BMA over the past two months. A third (33%) said that they planned to work in another country within the next 12 months, with Australia and New Zealand...

www.bmj.com

 

[beorhthelm]

comparing to 2008 pay scales, they are 10% behind on inflation this year. in 2020 they were ahead of inflation. presumably they are trying to bake in another 25% for the next few years.

 

[beorhthelm]

But an individual Junior Doctor could never have seen that decrease ? Unless they are in perpetual training >

every single public sector professional pay disputes ignores that they on a rising salary treadmill, while making it look like they haven't had a pay rise in 10 years. doctor starting in 2008 should be in consultant grades by now, earning 88k+

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

My younger daughter is a junior doctor and is going to be striking today. We were with her over the weekend. She was very clear that her main motivation for striking is to highlight the state of the NHS at the moment after years of mismanagement and underfunding. She was talking for example this weekend about the figures just come out about the increases in numbers of people dying because of excessive waits for ambulances.
A major part of that obviously is about staffing issues across the board - recruitment and retention for example. To put it in footballing terms, the government has lost the dressing room.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Have they misread the room?

Ten years ago a young registrar working with me upped sticks and moved to Canada, fed up with his modest salary (at the time, about 75% of mine - I am not a medic). At the time he was in his mid 30s, married with 3 kids and renting. He had added an extra 3 years to his training by doing a PhD. As a junior doctor, his hours were absurd (even if far better than 15 years before that, when they often worked 48 hour shifts). His attitude was that he wanted to live the very comfortable life that his training and sacrifice (as he saw it) warranted.

I had every sympathy. He is now living a very comfortable life in Victoria. He works all hours still, but that's because he likes it.

But....there are countless docs who shimmy to consultant (there is a guaranteed path these days whereas 30 years ago it was dead man's shoes) and get into private practice even before that. Money coming out of their ears.

However, if junior doctors reflect the medical students I teach, and other students, I suspect there is a growing cohort of the entitled. Yes, I agree they are 35% worse off than their equivalents 15 years ago. But their tendency to complain, and expect everything to be easy, has increased with inflation.

The big final year BSc class I teach, which includes intercalating medics, has three formative elements (training exercises) and three summative. I am used to a 100% submission rate. This year they have dropped off a cliff. Only 61% sent me the formative essay plan. That's the opportunity for me to tell them how they should restructure their plans and what to add to get a good mark. f*** me. 61%? Are 39% thinking thinking 'no, you're OK, mate, I don't need your help'? For another piece of work, 24% of students have failed the exercise, with half of them not submitting the work. That's a third of the marks for the course. And lots of them are submitting mitigating circumstances forms (MCFs). That never used to happen. Colleagues say the students have become soft owing to Covid (and not 'being on campus'). Well, they have been back on campus for 18 months now. Whatever the reason a significant minority don't seem to understand the importance of putting in a shift. Then they act all shocked when they get a fail mark. Perhaps the same mind set has afflicted the junior docs.

Anyway I have said for ever that the tax payer should not be subsidizing the training of NHS doctors who opt to work several half days a week in private clinics the moment the opportunity arises. Why not pay them a bit more but sign them to a 'no private practice' clause? Being trained as a medic should be like being trained to be a soldier. Yes, some soldiers resign and become military consultants. But they don't resign and join the Russian army. Spending half you time in private practice is like working part time for the Russians. Private practice is a parasite on the NHS, encouraged by the tories with tax breaks. Think about that!

So, play fair, consultants, and your juniors would get more sympathy (from me).

 

[BLOCK F]

35%, is that a real pay demand? doesn't seem remotely sensible. the biggest problem for doctors is hitting the life time pension limits, they do a few years on relatively low pay then supercharged. there will no doubt be some talk about pay worse than baristas (Mrs was on about this the other day), where they compare the 1st yr basic salary to a Starbucks manager, overlook the extra paid for out of hours work, specialism etc, which take basic pay up to mid 30's in first year.

I believe Chancellor Hunt is expected to raise the lifetime limits in the forthcoming Budget to mitigate the pension problem and encourage more medics to stay in post.

 

[BLOCK F]

Ten years ago a young registrar working with me upped sticks and moved to Canada, fed up with his modest salary (at the time, about 75% of mine - I am not a medic). At the time he was in his mid 30s, married with 3 kids and renting. He had added an extra 3 years to his training by doing a PhD. As a junior doctor, his hours were absurd (even if far better than 15 years before that, when they often worked 48 hour shifts). His attitude was that he wanted to live the very comfortable life that his training and sacrifice (as he saw it) warranted.

I had every sympathy. He is now living a very comfortable life in Victoria. He works all hours still, but that's because he likes it.

But....there are countless docs who shimmy to consultant (there is a guaranteed path these days whereas 30 years ago it was dead man's shoes) and get into private practice even before that. Money coming out of their ears.

However, if junior doctors reflect the medical students I teach, and other students, I suspect there is a growing cohort of the entitled. Yes, I agree they are 35% worse off than their equivalents 15 years ago. But their tendency to complain, and expect everything to be easy, has increased with inflation.

The big final year BSc class I teach, which includes intercalating medics, has three formative elements (training exercises) and three summative. I am used to a 100% submission rate. This year they have dropped off a cliff. Only 61% sent me the formative essay plan. That's the opportunity for me to tell them how they should restructure their plans and what to add to get a good mark. f*** me. 61%? Are 39% thinking thinking 'no, you're OK, mate, I don't need your help'? For another piece of work, 24% of students have failed the exercise, with half of them not submitting the work. That's a third of the marks for the course. And lots of them are submitting mitigating circumstances forms (MCFs). That never used to happen. Colleagues say the students have become soft owing to Covid (and not 'being on campus'). Well, they have been back on campus for 18 months now. Whatever the reason a significant minority don't seem to understand the importance of putting in a shift. Then they act all shocked when they get a fail mark. Perhaps the same mind set has afflicted the junior docs.

Anyway I have said for ever that the tax payer should not be subsidizing the training of NHS doctors who opt to work several half days a week in private clinics the moment the opportunity arises. Why not pay them a bit more but sign them to a 'no private practice' clause? Being trained as a medic should be like being trained to be a soldier. Yes, some soldiers resign and become military consultants. But they don't resign and join the Russian army. Spending half you time in private practice is like working part time for the Russians. Private practice is a parasite on the NHS, encouraged by the tories with tax breaks. Think about that!

So, play fair, consultants, and your juniors would get more sympathy (from me).

My late father and uncle (ex GP and Cardio Thoracic Consultant respectively) would be seriously spinning in their graves at the thought of any doctors going on strike.
I do wonder whether those recruiting med students these days aren’t taking on a few of the wrong sort.

 

[Weststander]

Ten years ago a young registrar working with me upped sticks and moved to Canada, fed up with his modest salary (at the time, about 75% of mine - I am not a medic). At the time he was in his mid 30s, married with 3 kids and renting. He had added an extra 3 years to his training by doing a PhD. As a junior doctor, his hours were absurd (even if far better than 15 years before that, when they often worked 48 hour shifts). His attitude was that he wanted to live the very comfortable life that his training and sacrifice (as he saw it) warranted.

I had every sympathy. He is now living a very comfortable life in Victoria. He works all hours still, but that's because he likes it.

But....there are countless docs who shimmy to consultant (there is a guaranteed path these days whereas 30 years ago it was dead man's shoes) and get into private practice even before that. Money coming out of their ears.

However, if junior doctors reflect the medical students I teach, and other students, I suspect there is a growing cohort of the entitled. Yes, I agree they are 35% worse off than their equivalents 15 years ago. But their tendency to complain, and expect everything to be easy, has increased with inflation.

The big final year BSc class I teach, which includes intercalating medics, has three formative elements (training exercises) and three summative. I am used to a 100% submission rate. This year they have dropped off a cliff. Only 61% sent me the formative essay plan. That's the opportunity for me to tell them how they should restructure their plans and what to add to get a good mark. f*** me. 61%? Are 39% thinking thinking 'no, you're OK, mate, I don't need your help'? For another piece of work, 24% of students have failed the exercise, with half of them not submitting the work. That's a third of the marks for the course. And lots of them are submitting mitigating circumstances forms (MCFs). That never used to happen. Colleagues say the students have become soft owing to Covid (and not 'being on campus'). Well, they have been back on campus for 18 months now. Whatever the reason a significant minority don't seem to understand the importance of putting in a shift. Then they act all shocked when they get a fail mark. Perhaps the same mind set has afflicted the junior docs.

Anyway I have said for ever that the tax payer should not be subsidizing the training of NHS doctors who opt to work several half days a week in private clinics the moment the opportunity arises. Why not pay them a bit more but sign them to a 'no private practice' clause? Being trained as a medic should be like being trained to be a soldier. Yes, some soldiers resign and become military consultants. But they don't resign and join the Russian army. Spending half you time in private practice is like working part time for the Russians. Private practice is a parasite on the NHS, encouraged by the tories with tax breaks. Think about that!

So, play fair, consultants, and your juniors would get more sympathy (from me).

They were scary Gods. Some still are!