Junior doctors to escalate industrial action to all-out strike next month

[Diego Napier]

Thank you [MENTION=15014]Waynflete[/MENTION] and [MENTION=28219]Technohead[/MENTION] for those erudite yet concise contributions; they do cut through a lot of the bluster, ignorance, political posturing & faux indignation being bandied around and also give the lie to accusations about putting patient lives at risk, being left in pain etc.

I wonder how many of those dissing the junior doctors would themselves meekly accept the imposition of the new contracts?

The writing is very much on the wall. There is nothing unwitting or inadvertent about this confrontation, it's been deliberately engineered by the government. If Berkeley gets his way, this will be a game changer. It will provide a step change acceleration to the ongoing effort to dismantle the NHS.

 

[BLOCK F]

But there's still a shortage of doctors though, which doesn't suggest they are overpaid.

There are huge numbers of young people who want to get into medical school, despite the awful working conditions that the BMA and young doctors say the Government wants to impose on the profession.

 

[Lower West Stander]

I know what you mean. I'd just say to remember that these are people who dedicate their lives to saving lives and helping people. Imagine how bad things must be for them to justify doing this.

The government, meanwhile, will be hoping for chaos so that the tide of opinion swings against the doctors.

Sorry - I just can't agree with that.

As I said earlier, I support the argument but whichever way you look at at it threatening to put people's life at risk by threatening an A&E strike smacks of militancy. There is no doubt consultants can cover the strikes on regular wards but to say "imagine how bad things are" removes perspective. Junior doctors are following a career path which will prove very lucrative for many in years to come.

Many professions have it worse and can't make the same threat. I would also say that a nurses working pattern takes no account of weekends at all. Why should it be different for doctors?

 

[El Presidente]

With both sides to the argument putting out such measured, well informed and eloquent arguments to support their case, who on earth should one believe?

Disgraceful action by the BMA and the junior doctors.
Under no circumstances can this action be justified.
Make no mistake this is about politics and money,not patient safety.
The offer from the Government is pretty fair and any disagreements over fine details do not warrant this kind of action.
Patient safety, my arse, they won't even provide emergency cover.

My wife is a junior doctor, so let me take a stab at explaining, as I understand it...

The objections to the current proposals are in large part because of a total (justified) lack of trust in the government on behalf of doctors.

As you know, this is all part of the government's plan to have a '7-day NHS' for non-emergency care. (We already have a 7-day NHS for emergency care). This idea is based on a misuse of statistics to assert wrongly that there are more deaths at weekends because of staffing.

To achieve a 7-day NHS for non-emergency care you have to do one of three things:

1. Pay for more doctors, nurses and other staff to increase care by two days per week - which would cost a lot more money (and the trained staff don't exist because there are already shortages in key areas).
2. Get existing staff to work for longer hours to cover the extra two days - which is unsafe and unfair on those existing staff.
3. Spread the working hours of existing staff more thinly over the week, to cover the extra two days - which will reduce the quality of care.

Now, the government is claiming that it can deliver a 7-day NHS with no significant increase in total budget, with no doctor being paid less, with no-one having to work longer hours and no reduction in quality of care. That so clearly doesn't add up, and doctors have been rightly suspicious of these proposals as a result.

Lo and behold, when NHS Employers released some sample rotas for junior doctors under the new contract, they were found to be full of things like claiming a day immediately after a night shift was a 'day off', despite the doctor having worked for probably about ten hours on that day, from midnight to 10am, and having to return to work that evening. Also, breaking promises on not working consecutive weekends. They are also very worried that, although current junior doctors are being offered this contract, there is no protection for doctors in a few years' time from an updated contract that would be even more unacceptable. In short, what the junior doctors are being asked to do is not fair or safe - and when the government says they won't be paid less or work more hours they simply don't believe it.

Fundamentally, this is about a government trying to push through an uncosted and ill-thought-out manifesto pledge, not listening when the experts expected to deliver it tell them it won't work, carrying on regardless, then spinning against doctors by claiming it's all about pay - which is absolute rubbish. It is also absolute nonsense that changing the junior doctor contract will deliver 7-day NHS, of course, because they will also have to change the contracts of everyone else working in the NHS, too.

The end result is likely to be fewer doctors recruited, more doctors leaving the NHS to work abroad or in private practice, worsening shortages in key specialist areas like paediatrics, an overall worse service - and ultimately a recourse to more private medicine to fill the inevitable gaps, which will be more expensive for all concerned, especially the taxpayer.

So, support our junior doctors! They genuinely don't want to strike. They have been backed into a corner, and have judged that this is worth doing in the short term in an attempt to stave off something that would be much worse for patients in the long term.

 

[El Presidente]

There are huge numbers of young people who want to get into medical school, despite the awful working conditions that the BMA and young doctors say the Government wants to impose on the profession.

Perhaps they want to do something good for society?

 

[darkwolf666]

Perhaps they want to do something good for society?

What, like politicians - oh, wait, sorry I've got that wrong haven't I?

 

[Diego Napier]

With both sides to the argument putting out such measured, well informed and eloquent arguments to support their case, who on earth should one believe?

Well, what withering wit!

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The general public will only support them for so long then the tide will start turning. It happened with the Firefighter strike. If we got a government at loggerheads with these Jr Doctors over money and hours because the government cannot afford it, then it is down to all tax payers to start contributing a bit more. There isn't anything wrong with this. If we all want a first class where everyone is happy, gets paid fairly that is the reality of the situation.

 

[Diego Napier]

There are huge numbers of young people who want to get into medical school, despite the awful working conditions that the BMA and young doctors say the Government wants to impose on the profession.

Really? What is this huge number? I wonder why the government don't provide more places then? Perhaps instead they would rather import doctors from overseas although with such a large ongoing shortfall in GP numbers that doesn't seem to work too well does it? I wonder if that's something to do with their terms and conditions?

 

[BLOCK F]

With both sides to the argument putting out such measured, well informed and eloquent arguments to support their case, who on earth should one believe?

Harsh, El Presidente.
However, persuasive the points put forward most eloquently by Wayneflete, I still maintain my position that action of this kind is unjustified and reflects badly on the BMA and junior doctors.

 

[BLOCK F]

Really? What is this huge number? I wonder why the government don't provide more places then? Perhaps instead they would rather import doctors from overseas although with such a large ongoing shortfall in GP numbers that doesn't seem to work too well does it? I wonder if that's something to do with their terms and conditions?

Just look at the competition to get into medical school. It isn't easy.
Yes, we should be able to train more of our own medics and nurses in this country, rather than importing them.
I have never quite understood why the GP's bemoan their lot quite so much.
They don't work particularly long hours, have largely opted out of weekend and evening work, are well paid and many can afford to retire at 60 with a great pension. Yes, there is a lot of frustration with overbearing bureaucratic systems,but overall it is a pretty satisfying career.
Not suggesting they have to work as hard as my father did as a GP who set up a practice many years ago,but there is room for improvement!

 

[gordonchas]

Just look at the competition to get into medical school. It isn't easy.
Yes, we should be able to train more of our own medics and nurses in this country, rather than importing them.
I have never quite understood why the GP's bemoan their lot quite so much.
They don't work particularly long hours, have largely opted out of weekend and evening work, are well paid and many can afford to retire at 60 with a great pension. Yes, there is a lot of frustration with overbearing bureaucratic systems,but overall it is a pretty satisfying career.
Not suggesting they have to work as hard as my father did as a GP who set up a practice many years ago,but there is room for improvement!

Places at medical school are oversubscribed by 10 to 1. There is no shortage of would-be doctors.

Contrary to the current meme there is actually an over-supply of doctors in the UK. See this link from 4 years ago
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9177635/Glut-of-NHS-doctors-by-2020-report-warns.html

And for all the hand-wringing about privatisation, GPs are in the private sector, and they always have been since the inception of the NHS.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Perhaps they want to do something good for society?

Perhaps they should go into politics then, heaven knows we all keep complaining about our politicians? Must be easier to make improvements there than take the tough, underpaid, overworked life of a doctor......

 

[Igzilla]

Perhaps they should go into politics then, heaven knows we all keep complaining about our politicians? Must be easier to make improvements there than take the tough, underpaid, overworked life of a doctor......

At the risk of sounding smug, they did.

http://nhap.org/

 

[Waynflete]

Just look at the competition to get into medical school. It isn't easy.
Yes, we should be able to train more of our own medics and nurses in this country, rather than importing them.
I have never quite understood why the GP's bemoan their lot quite so much.
They don't work particularly long hours, have largely opted out of weekend and evening work, are well paid and many can afford to retire at 60 with a great pension. Yes, there is a lot of frustration with overbearing bureaucratic systems,but overall it is a pretty satisfying career.
Not suggesting they have to work as hard as my father did as a GP who set up a practice many years ago,but there is room for improvement!

Places at medical school are oversubscribed by 10 to 1. There is no shortage of would-be doctors.

Contrary to the current meme there is actually an over-supply of doctors in the UK. See this link from 4 years ago
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9177635/Glut-of-NHS-doctors-by-2020-report-warns.html

And for all the hand-wringing about privatisation, GPs are in the private sector, and they always have been since the inception of the NHS.

Competition for places at medical school is not the same thing as an over-supply of doctors. There is overall an insufficient number of medical school places; then there are a number of high-intensity specialities that find it hard to attract trainees and therefore have a significant shortage; and finally there is a high attrition rate, both in general and particularly in those high intensity specialities - for example obstetrics and gynaecology: https://www.rcog.org.uk/en/news/rcog-statement-on-new-contract-proposals-for-junior-doctors/
[MENTION=24895]gordonchas[/MENTION] there is not an over-supply of doctors in the UK. The article you link to is specifically about a 'bulge' of doctors at a certain point in their careers about to become consultants. That is not at all the same thing as a general over-supply.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

Really? What is this huge number? I wonder why the government don't provide more places then? Perhaps instead they would rather import doctors from overseas although with such a large ongoing shortfall in GP numbers that doesn't seem to work too well does it? I wonder if that's something to do with their terms and conditions?

It's true that medical school places are oversubscribed but that's not the issue. It's incredibly inefficient (and expensive) to train a load of doctors who then get treated like crap and leave a few years into working.

 

[Indurain's Lungs]

Places at medical school are oversubscribed by 10 to 1. There is no shortage of would-be doctors.

Contrary to the current meme there is actually an over-supply of doctors in the UK. See this link from 4 years ago
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9177635/Glut-of-NHS-doctors-by-2020-report-warns.html

And for all the hand-wringing about privatisation, GPs are in the private sector, and they always have been since the inception of the NHS.

GPs are not in the private sector - they are essentially contracted by the NHS but completely under conditions and payments determined by the NHS. Salaried GPs are employed by practices but under the conditions and contract set out by the NHS. This is a fairly recent phenomenon over the last 20 years.

Just look at the competition to get into medical school. It isn't easy.
Yes, we should be able to train more of our own medics and nurses in this country, rather than importing them.
I have never quite understood why the GP's bemoan their lot quite so much.
They don't work particularly long hours, have largely opted out of weekend and evening work, are well paid and many can afford to retire at 60 with a great pension. Yes, there is a lot of frustration with overbearing bureaucratic systems,but overall it is a pretty satisfying career.
Not suggesting they have to work as hard as my father did as a GP who set up a practice many years ago,but there is room for improvement!

Actually, the more senior GPs managed to keep this deal. Junior doctors will now retire at state pension age (predicted to be 68-70 by the time of their retirement) and pensions have been scaled back with contributions increased. GP partners will now pay 14.3% of income as the employer and up to 14.3% as the employee of gross income - its a good pension but its definitely paid for now with no option of early retirement without losing most of the pension. (FWIW I am not a GP, nor would I do their job for twice the money!). As for the hours - the evidence suggests they are working very long hours to keep up - the average 60% part time GP is working over 40 hours a week. Insurance fees are now around £8k a year as well.

 

[worthingseagull123]

Disgraceful action by the BMA and the junior doctors.
Under no circumstances can this action be justified.
Make no mistake this is about politics and money,not patient safety.
The offer from the Government is pretty fair and any disagreements over fine details do not warrant this kind of action.
Patient safety, my arse, they won't even provide emergency cover.

People getting tired of all this "we're in this together" crap.

Hopefully all public workers will strike for a fair deal.

Bring this government to its knees

 

[BLOCK F]

GPs are not in the private sector - they are essentially contracted by the NHS but completely under conditions and payments determined by the NHS. Salaried GPs are employed by practices but under the conditions and contract set out by the NHS. This is a fairly recent phenomenon over the last 20 years.



Actually, the more senior GPs managed to keep this deal. Junior doctors will now retire at state pension age (predicted to be 68-70 by the time of their retirement) and pensions have been scaled back with contributions increased. GP partners will now pay 14.3% of income as the employer and up to 14.3% as the employee of gross income - its a good pension but its definitely paid for now with no option of early retirement without losing most of the pension. (FWIW I am not a GP, nor would I do their job for twice the money!). As for the hours - the evidence suggests they are working very long hours to keep up - the average 60% part time GP is working over 40 hours a week. Insurance fees are now around £8k a year as well.

Long hours? How on earth did they cope when they were responsible for out of hours care not so long ago? Out of hours care is a fiasco, and of course, this leads to extra visits to A&E.
You may not do their job for twice the pay, but plenty would.
They couldn't believe their luck when the Labour Government of the time, ballsed up on negotiations.

 

[BLOCK F]

People getting tired of all this "we're in this together" crap.

Hopefully all public workers will strike for a fair deal.

Bring this government to its knees

That's it, life would be wonderful under Corbyn,McDonnell and Abbott, wouldn't it?