Jeremy Hunt-v-Junior Doctors.

[DavidinSouthampton]

This doctor is yet another force feeding the lie to the public that this dispute is not about money but saving the NHS. He states his case about working long hours and working in a highly pressurised environment which are all fair points, and then bangs on about going onto the picket line to save the NHS. Fighting for your working conditions is fine, but telling me that you are doing it on my behalf is disengenuous to say the least.

He also mentions that he is paid £18 per hour for a 48 hour week, but often works a 60 hour week, long hours without doubt but many others work the same for less. That hourly rate actually works out at £864 per week, or £45k per year. Comfortable money for most, brilliant money for the average 27 year old. This doctor also has the opportunity to earn far, far more over the coming years as his experience and pay grade rises, up to what £70k, £85k or £100k+?

By all means fight for your rights, but stop lieing to the public please that it is on their behalf.

The description you give makes it sound as if being a doctor is just another job, and not a VOCATION.

I am confident that the vast majority of doctors are in it because they care passionately about what they do and care passionately about the people they are doing it for. The "saving the health service" thing is something they genuinely believe.

And as for the how much they earn and could earn bit, would it occur to you at all:
1. The length and intensity of the training and the cost of financing that. My daughter did 6 years in London, which wasn't exactly cheap from the point of view of student loans, accommodation, tuition fees etc etc.
2. The level of responsibility they actually carry and the stress they are working under. Nowhere else is the expression "life or death decision" more appropriate.
3. The fact that they are very capable people and might, just might, be able to earn more money elsewhere if they went in to banking or something similar, where they could screw the whole world over with their mistakes and come out smelling of roses the other side - possibly unfair to large numbers of decent people who might be in banking.

And it's not only doctors, it's nurses, nurses, paramedics, radiographers, pharmacists and the whole range of other professionals in the NHSwho are overworked and underpaid, to say the least.

I would have to agree that there probably is a lot wrong with the health service that needs addressing, but Jeremy Hunt is maybe not the right person to be doing it.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I havent really followed the detail closely, I would expect a Tory government to offer reasonable money and working conditions for doctors, well any government actually.

I just need to know a few things:

What exactly is a 'Junior Doctor' and how long are you one before becoming fully qualified, is it a kind of work experience thing working with fully qualified doctors, very rarely making life and death decisions ?

What are they likely average weekly working hours and how are these new proposals going to effect this ?

So what is their annual salary or hourly rate and how does their salary timeline continue if they stay and become fully qualified doctor or other within the NHS ?

Thank you

You do not become a junior doctor until you are qualified.

And junior doctor then covers everything and everyone who is not a consultant, so it is something of a misnomer. It is in other words the vast majority of doctors working in the health service in hospitals.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

There is not a true seven day a week NHS. All this Jnr. Doctor talk is hot air, they are running interference for and are being encouraged by Consultants, as they will be the real stumbling block to a seven day a week NHS. This is the real battle, changing a Contract that has been worked under since 1947.

I read a letter in the paper a few weeks ago from the wife of a consultant cardiologist. Slightly tongue in cheek, she was saying that her husband had been out a lot one in three weekends over the last however many years saying he was working. She was asking "should I be worried?"

I have a brother-in-law who, until recently, was a consultant general surgeon. I know full well that he was similarly on call i in every three weekends, and on call did actually mean going in every day and not just being available on the other end of a phone. He would also on occasion be doing things on the weekends when he wasn't on call.

In other words, I suggest you check your facts.

 

[BigGully]

You do not become a junior doctor until you are qualified.

And junior doctor then covers everything and everyone who is not a consultant, so it is something of a misnomer. It is in other words the vast majority of doctors working in the health service in hospitals.

Ahh OK, so how do you become a consultant, what exactly is a consultant ?

Salary, Hours etc, ?

Thanks

 

[sten_super]

[MENTION=31]El Presidente[/MENTION] has got this completely nailed. Junior doctors are not (as far as I'm aware from media coverage and knowing a few) unwilling to participate in a "7-day NHS", indeed the majority already do. The problem is that Hunt, and the Government, want to run the extra services without any commensurate increase in funding.

If Hunt really believes that we have a 5-day NHS, and wants to move it to 7-days, the answer is simple; increase funding by 40% (realistically it will be less than this, due to the large part of the NHS that is already 7 days) to cover the cost of increased services. Instead he's trying to reduce the wage bill and other costs for current services in order to squeeze additional services into the same budget.

 

[highflyer]

The description you give makes it sound as if being a doctor is just another job, and not a VOCATION.

I am confident that the vast majority of doctors are in it because they care passionately about what they do and care passionately about the people they are doing it for. The "saving the health service" thing is something they genuinely believe.

And as for the how much they earn and could earn bit, would it occur to you at all:
1. The length and intensity of the training and the cost of financing that. My daughter did 6 years in London, which wasn't exactly cheap from the point of view of student loans, accommodation, tuition fees etc etc.
2. The level of responsibility they actually carry and the stress they are working under. Nowhere else is the expression "life or death decision" more appropriate.
3. The fact that they are very capable people and might, just might, be able to earn more money elsewhere if they went in to banking or something similar, where they could screw the whole world over with their mistakes and come out smelling of roses the other side - possibly unfair to large numbers of decent people who might be in banking.

And it's not only doctors, it's nurses, nurses, paramedics, radiographers, pharmacists and the whole range of other professionals in the NHSwho are overworked and underpaid, to say the least.

I would have to agree that there probably is a lot wrong with the health service that needs addressing, but Jeremy Hunt is maybe not the right person to be doing it.

By some way the best post on this topic. You may find this of interest:

http://valuesandframes.org/survey/

 

[Westdene Seagull]

@El Presidente has got this completely nailed. Junior doctors are not (as far as I'm aware from media coverage and knowing a few) unwilling to participate in a "7-day NHS", indeed the majority already do. The problem is that Hunt, and the Government, want to run the extra services without any commensurate increase in funding.

If Hunt really believes that we have a 5-day NHS, and wants to move it to 7-days, the answer is simple; increase funding by 40% (realistically it will be less than this, due to the large part of the NHS that is already 7 days) to cover the cost of increased services. Instead he's trying to reduce the wage bill and other costs for current services in order to squeeze additional services into the same budget.

And the utterly daft thing being that I would predict that virtually every person that pays NI ( yes I know, it doesn't really go to pensions and the NHS ) would probably willingly pay £10-£20 extra per month to fund the extra cover.

 

[Seagull27]

[MENTION=31]El Presidente[/MENTION] has got this completely nailed. Junior doctors are not (as far as I'm aware from media coverage and knowing a few) unwilling to participate in a "7-day NHS", indeed the majority already do. The problem is that Hunt, and the Government, want to run the extra services without any commensurate increase in funding.

If Hunt really believes that we have a 5-day NHS, and wants to move it to 7-days, the answer is simple; increase funding by 40% (realistically it will be less than this, due to the large part of the NHS that is already 7 days) to cover the cost of increased services. Instead he's trying to reduce the wage bill and other costs for current services in order to squeeze additional services into the same budget.

Exactly.

I have a friend who is a Junior Doctor, she told me yesterday that she currently works in a ward that is supposed to have 8 junior doctors to cover the duties they have. She is currently one of three. She's not worried about the wages in these new contracts - she's pretty happy with what she earns and knows it increases as she gets more experience.

She is worried, however, that the people in her ward are already stretched to breaking point. These new contracts mean that they will likely have to work longer shifts, and with less time between shifts. It's not too much of a jump to realise that this will mean doctors will be (even) more tired and stressed, and more likely to make mistakes/poor decisions.

 

[sahel]

The description you give makes it sound as if being a doctor is just another job, and not a VOCATION.

I am confident that the vast majority of doctors are in it because they care passionately about what they do and care passionately about the people they are doing it for. The "saving the health service" thing is something they genuinely believe.

And as for the how much they earn and could earn bit, would it occur to you at all:
1. The length and intensity of the training and the cost of financing that. My daughter did 6 years in London, which wasn't exactly cheap from the point of view of student loans, accommodation, tuition fees etc etc.
2. The level of responsibility they actually carry and the stress they are working under. Nowhere else is the expression "life or death decision" more appropriate.
3. The fact that they are very capable people and might, just might, be able to earn more money elsewhere if they went in to banking or something similar, where they could screw the whole world over with their mistakes and come out smelling of roses the other side - possibly unfair to large numbers of decent people who might be in banking.

And it's not only doctors, it's nurses, nurses, paramedics, radiographers, pharmacists and the whole range of other professionals in the NHSwho are overworked and underpaid, to say the least.

I would have to agree that there probably is a lot wrong with the health service that needs addressing, but Jeremy Hunt is maybe not the right person to be doing it.

Very good post. One of the major achievements of the Labour years was an increase in health spending to European averages. This enabled big increases in the pay of NHS employees. That is now being reversed as we spend less and less than our European counterparts. By 2020 public expenditure will be at historic low levels as a proportion of GDP. Do people realise I wonder that that is what they voted for?

 

[Yoda]

This doctor is yet another force feeding the lie to the public that this dispute is not about money but saving the NHS. He states his case about working long hours and working in a highly pressurised environment which are all fair points, and then bangs on about going onto the picket line to save the NHS. Fighting for your working conditions is fine, but telling me that you are doing it on my behalf is disengenuous to say the least.

He also mentions that he is paid £18 per hour for a 48 hour week, but often works a 60 hour week, long hours without doubt but many others work the same for less. That hourly rate actually works out at £864 per week, or £45k per year. Comfortable money for most, brilliant money for the average 27 year old. This doctor also has the opportunity to earn far, far more over the coming years as his experience and pay grade rises, up to what £70k, £85k or £100k+?

By all means fight for your rights, but stop lieing to the public please that it is on their behalf.

But remember, its not like he's working on a building site where he can just drop sticks at the end of his shift which is why a lot of the time their 45 hour week goes out to 60. There's also then the after care and handovers that need to be done and they are sometimes also on call.

Oh! and the only NHS staff whose salaries are £70-100k are the top directors (Band 9). Band 8d goes from £70-81k The highest a Dr and get to in Band 7 (£31-£41k). Your example looks to be including their overtime pay for unsocial hours.
*figures based on 2015 pay scales, not what has just been imposed on them.

 

[wellquickwoody]

13.5% of shit, is still shit.

13.5% of £45k is over six grand. If I send you my account details perhaps you wouldn't mind setting up a direct debit to me seeing as how you wouldn't miss that piffling amount?

 

[BigGully]

Jeeeez any danger of people posted friggin wages and average likely hours worked, holidays and how the timeline of wages increase.

Its all very well telling us what a great job they do, we know that but put some meat on the bones, we can then judge whether its reasonable money and hours and then we can factor in the level of skill, stress etc ......

 

[glasfryn]

yesterday I was discharged from the DGH Eastbourne after going in as an emergency with very severe headache,waited in accident and emergency for 4 hours seen several nurses(stroke nurse and triarge) was then ushered to an isolation room as they thought it was menengitis.
after a long discussion with a JUNIOR DOCTOR she realised it was nothing of the sort (me now thinking I was a bit of a fraud) another JUNIOR DOCTOR came and examined me and agreed with her that it could be GCA (giant cell arteritis) in our speak a ballooned artery in the brain.
Polymyalgia rheumatica was also mentioned, so up to the ward until I saw the Rheumatology consultant who agreed with the prognosis, so now a biopsy (small hole in the head and bit taken off the artery which I am not looking forward to) this Wednesday and after that who knows .
the whole point of this little story is to prove maybe (but I feel most certainly) that JUNIOR DOCTORS ARE WORTH THEIR WEIGHT IN GOLD the diagnosed something that happens to people (mostly women I might say) 22 in 100.000 thats what they are paid for and rightly so.
its not until you meet the good old NHS full on that you realise just how hard nurses and doctors in all stages, its OK sitting on the sidelines mulling over whether JUNIOR DOCTORS are moaning for no real reason, when you will pay a heating engineer a fortune to repair your boiler or an electrician the same when your heating or lights go out in an emergency.
the JUNIOR DOCTORS are not asking for more money just a little fairness.
and I doubt you will find anyone who has had to use the hospitals lately will argue that said doctors should get at least that a little fairness.
last word if those JUNIOR DOCTORS had not diagnosed as they did with me and sent me home with painkillers in a short time it could have lead to permanent blindness.
nope you will never hear me moaning about the NHS creeking as it is

 

[BigGully]

yesterday I was discharged from the DGH Eastbourne after going in as an emergency with very severe headache,waited in accident and emergency for 4 hours seen several nurses(stroke nurse and triarge) was then ushered to an isolation room as they thought it was menengitis.
after a long discussion with a JUNIOR DOCTOR she realised it was nothing of the sort (me now thinking I was a bit of a fraud) another JUNIOR DOCTOR came and examined me and agreed with her that it could be GCA (giant cell arteritis) in our speak a ballooned artery in the brain.
Polymyalgia rheumatica was also mentioned, so up to the ward until I saw the Rheumatology consultant who agreed with the prognosis, so now a biopsy (small hole in the head and bit taken off the artery which I am not looking forward to) this Wednesday and after that who knows .
the whole point of this little story is to prove maybe (but I feel most certainly) that JUNIOR DOCTORS ARE WORTH THEIR WEIGHT IN GOLD the diagnosed something that happens to people (mostly women I might say) 22 in 100.000 thats what they are paid for and rightly so.
its not until you meet the good old NHS full on that you realise just how hard nurses and doctors in all stages, its OK sitting on the sidelines mulling over whether JUNIOR DOCTORS are moaning for no real reason, when you will pay a heating engineer a fortune to repair your boiler or an electrician the same when your heating or lights go out in an emergency.
the JUNIOR DOCTORS are not asking for more money just a little fairness.
and I doubt you will find anyone who has hed to use the hospitals lately will argue that said doctors should get at least that a little fairness.
last word if those JUNIOR DOCTORS had not diagnosed as they did with me and sent me home with painkillers in a short time it could have lead to permanent blindness.
nope you will never hear me moaning about the NHS creeking as it is

I am not sure anyone is questioning their skills or importance, including the government ...............

 

[gregbrighton]

yesterday I was discharged from the DGH Eastbourne after going in as an emergency with very severe headache,waited in accident and emergency for 4 hours seen several nurses(stroke nurse and triarge) was then ushered to an isolation room as they thought it was menengitis.
after a long discussion with a JUNIOR DOCTOR she realised it was nothing of the sort (me now thinking I was a bit of a fraud) another JUNIOR DOCTOR came and examined me and agreed with her that it could be GCA (giant cell arteritis) in our speak a ballooned artery in the brain.
Polymyalgia rheumatica was also mentioned, so up to the ward until I saw the Rheumatology consultant who agreed with the prognosis, so now a biopsy (small hole in the head and bit taken off the artery which I am not looking forward to) this Wednesday and after that who knows .
the whole point of this little story is to prove maybe (but I feel most certainly) that JUNIOR DOCTORS ARE WORTH THEIR WEIGHT IN GOLD the diagnosed something that happens to people (mostly women I might say) 22 in 100.000 thats what they are paid for and rightly so.
its not until you meet the good old NHS full on that you realise just how hard nurses and doctors in all stages, its OK sitting on the sidelines mulling over whether JUNIOR DOCTORS are moaning for no real reason, when you will pay a heating engineer a fortune to repair your boiler or an electrician the same when your heating or lights go out in an emergency.
the JUNIOR DOCTORS are not asking for more money just a little fairness.
and I doubt you will find anyone who has hed to use the hospitals lately will argue that said doctors should get at least that a little fairness.
last word if those JUNIOR DOCTORS had not diagnosed as they did with me and sent me home with painkillers in a short time it could have lead to permanent blindness.
nope you will never hear me moaning about the NHS creeking as it is

Agree with you 100%. Hope things get sorted out for you, glasfyn.

 

[beorhthelm]

My younger daughter is a junior doctor. She is in no way a political animal, but she is furious.

as someone with likely a more honest view than either the government or union, what is it she is furious about?

 

[glasfryn]

Agree with you 100%. Hope things get sorted out for you, glasfyn.

I am sure they will be now and thanks

 

[glasfryn]

I am not sure anyone is questioning their skills or importance, including the government ...............

then maybe they should get on with talks ...........otherwise they will lose them and the respect of the public

 

[Hampster Gull]

More global, more 24/7. Modern life

 

[Seagull27]

More global, more 24/7. Modern life

And how exactly do you expect this to be workable without any increase in investment?