its the slippery slope

[drew]

Thought I had posted on this earlier but apparently not (must be my age!).

Anyway, I consider myself of socialist tendencies but I believe all benefits should be means tested. If we had a proper system then that would allow more money to be paid to those at the bottom. However, the track record for this government for means testing, I cite the child benefit debacle as an example, would suggest that if they did, it would end in tears all round!!!!

 

[APACHE]

Surely the real problem is the lack of control the Goverment has over the cost of gas and electric the elderly need to survive. Even the poor and out of work can't heat themselves without the benefit payments,it's a vital part of life and so should not be in the hands of the private sector making them millions in bonuses and then demanding money from Goverment to build new power stations so they can make even more at our expense.

 

[beorhthelm]

making benefits taxable makes sense but would recover nowhere near as much as the tories intend. Their main intent currently appears to be to stigmatise all benefits recipients with a long term view to stop all state benefits.

this has been discussed for 10 or 15 years, Frank Field suggested much of the current policy when Minister for Welfare Reform, but quietly ignored. its not a party matter, its a matter of making the benefits (and pensions) system work for those that *need* it and be affordable.

 

[glasfryn]

Thought I had posted on this earlier but apparently not (must be my age!).

Anyway, I consider myself of socialist tendencies but I believe all benefits should be means tested. If we had a proper system then that would allow more money to be paid to those at the bottom. However, the track record for this government for means testing, I cite the child benefit debacle as an example, would suggest that if they did, it would end in tears all round!!!!

this I agree with

Surely the real problem is the lack of control the Goverment has over the cost of gas and electric the elderly need to survive. Even the poor and out of work can't heat themselves without the benefit payments,it's a vital part of life and so should not be in the hands of the private sector making them millions in bonuses and then demanding money from Goverment to build new power stations so they can make even more at our expense.

I don't like to make this party political but it was the tories who sold off the utilities and I have the feeling that if I am around long enough this will really come home to roost
politics aside ......something has to be done and it looks like the best we will be able to muster is the suggestion of the above and below posters

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

I cannot understand why they say means testing is too expensive as pensioners are means tested to decide if they need more money than their basic state pension so the simple answer is that people who qualify for that also qualify for fuel allowance if they don't qualify for one they don't get the other.

Only those who qualify for pension credit will receive the winter fuel allowance. The Government saves a fortune by not paying out to the 80% who don't qualify.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

that is the proposal based on pension credit (ie those in greatest need). It discounts those who are in need but marginally less so. Old age makes people easy tagets for cold weather and ill health but it also makes them more susceptible to politicians!

There are millions of OAPs who chose to save a little for their retirement who will be penalised. Looks like stopping concessionary bus passes and free TV licences for the over 75's are next on the agenda to make Britain a fairer society.

 

[severnside gull]

Unfortunately the combination of an aging population and decreasing employment means that reviewing the benefits system and national treasures such as the NHS and our education system are, or should be, unavoidable. The biggest problem and my singular concern is that the decisions are down to politicians to make based on minimal expertise or appropriate qualifications, founded on ideologies and supported and advised by an inept disjointed and societally detached civil service,

The combination almost guarantees that choices made will be ineffective and lack any cohesion. Worse they will inevitably penalise many of those who need the services and the support most. It's a sad day for the the man at the bottom of the street while those at the top of the hill remain purposefully blind to the suffering they allow in the name of fairness.
Changes have to be made but they do not deserve to be made on a purely politically idealogical view of how society should be formed without any meaningful reference to the totality of that society and worse still on a piecemeal basis.

There is never much to be found by way of solace in anything touched by political partisanship and,on that basis, this is just one more sad day in the decline of a welfare state that has regretably outgrown itself.

 

[GT49er]

Should be limited to how much income you have and how much you have saved.

Sorting something with that free bus pass would save a lot of money too, keeping the card and just charging half fare instead would be better - friends of the family who are OAPs have said they would be fine with this.

Not to mention it would prevent the need for fare rises for everyone else.

The bus passes aren't a problem - you have to apply for them, and a lot of people just don't bother for one reason or another - not everybody who has one uses it a lot, either. OK, I do, but a lot of people don't

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

The bus passes aren't a problem - you have to apply for them, and a lot of people just don't bother for one reason or another - not everybody who has one uses it a lot, either. OK, I do, but a lot of people don't

Take away the concessionary bus passes and the number of bus users will plummet. Most of the country will see their local bus services reduced by at least a half as the bus companies will receive nothing from their local authority.

 

[glasfryn]

the slippery slope from a different angle
I suppose I could live in Stafford and the fear there is if I go into hospital

WILL I EVER COME OUT ALIVE

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

Take away the concessionary bus passes and the number of bus users will plummet. Most of the country will see their local bus services reduced by at least a half as the bus companies will receive nothing from their local authority.

Utter crap, OAPs arent the only people who use buses. Charging them a special OAP rate (maybe something like £1.50 for a single) would see more of an income for the bus company, its the free passes and the lack of income for the company which bump the fare up for everyone else and cause services to be reduced. Some services will need subsidising by the councils, but the amount they would have to pay would be a lot less, which of course saves money.

 

[BensGrandad]

that is the proposal based on pension credit (ie those in greatest need). It discounts those who are in need but marginally less so. Old age makes people easy tagets for cold weather and ill health but it also makes them more susceptible to politicians!

Is this not the same with all benefits tax bands etc there will always be some people who are either just over or under the given financial limit set but there must a figure under or over which applies for or against benefit. It makes sense to say if you qualify for Pension Credit you qualify as needing heating allowance if not you don't, very simple. This should not be paid to anybody living abroad and not shown on the current UK electoral roll but there will still be some who manage to slip under and abuse the system.

As regards the free bus pass if that was stopped most bus companies would fail to survive without drastic price rises. Virtually every bus that travels from Hayward Heath and Burgess Hill to Brighton or Crawley is full with OAP bus passes. Last Wednesday I went on the 270 that left at 10.10 from HH to Churchill Sq by the time we left Burgess Hill it was standing only and I only saw 1 person pay cash for a ticket, some may have had prepaid season tickets but most were OAP passes.

 

[BensGrandad]

Utter crap, OAPs arent the only people who use buses. Charging them a special OAP rate (maybe something like £1.50 for a single) would see more of an income for the bus company, its the free passes and the lack of income for the company which bump the fare up for everyone else and cause services to be reduced. Some services will need subsidising by the councils, but the amount they would have to pay would be a lot less, which of course saves money.

Not true because most OAP wouldnt then use the bus like me it is cheaper to use the car for my wife and myself but at the moment we use buses as that is cheaper.

 

[HawkTheSeagull]

Not true because most OAP wouldnt then use the bus like me it is cheaper to use the car for my wife and myself but at the moment we use buses as that is cheaper.

But not all OAPs have cars, meaning the bus would still be used. Its a small price to pay, but compared to the full adult price its still a hefty saving. Charging OAPs the same as a child rate might be better (for example thats £1 here or £1.60 for the day).

And saying buses will be scrapped if OAPs need to pay ? That wouldnt happen as the bus will still make the same amount of money but less will be contributed by the councils. The more people who travel free means the less the company makes, so when fuel increases happen - its people like me who keep suffering and have no alternative but to use the bus as driving is even more expensive.

 

[glasfryn]

Not true because most OAP wouldnt then use the bus like me it is cheaper to use the car for my wife and myself but at the moment we use buses as that is cheaper.

we do too
if it was not for the fact that family live in Brighton we would think seriously about cashing the car in

 

[piersa]

I know OAPs who have enough money who give theri fuel allowance to other people that need it.