[Football] "It's not VAR, it's the people running it"

[wellquickwoody]

So i sit here tonight reflecting on " the goal that never was " and still feel bitter that a moment of great euphoria for an individual player , the team , manager , staff , owner and fans was cancelled out by what is simply nitpicking . A superb strike worthy of any occasion , goal of the season quality , expunged . Instead of being savoured and talked about endlessly down the years it was consigned to the dumpster like a piece of trash . Is this what we have come to ?
It even affected my reaction to the trossard goal as i could not celebrate wildly for fear of having more joy sucked from me .
VAR what a shitshow !!

Utter agreement from me here Dave, but it needs people to act, to campaign, to cause a stink. It also needs those that feel nitpicking to be an admirable trait to be shown the error of their ways. Yes, Mwepu was offside, but so so fxxkin what? I don’t care if it might have affected the outcome because it didn’t, and even if it might have, again I say ‘so what’. To remove possibly the best goal from a Brighton player in the last few years, a goal which I believe would have been close to being the Premier League goal of the season already, and removing not only the joyous reaction from fans right there and then, but also from future celebrations is just not worth the ever so minor improvements that VAR has brought in.

Personally I have always believed that if referees are supervised correctly then decisions right or wrong even themselves over a season.

 

[Bozza]

I am not sure, but it seems odd to me that we are the only league that has chosen this method of using the technology and the one that appears to be having more issues with it.

Maybe a link worth exploring?

"It seems" makes it sound like something you're not entirely sure of. Someone saying something on 5Live doesn't make it true.

I've only had a quick google, but other leagues seem to be asking the same kind of questions that we are...

Germany - https://allnewspress.com/var-in-the-bundesliga-the-solutions-are-obvious-sport/ - "And yet, even after five years, every step of the decision-making process is still controversial: When will the VAR intervene? What exactly is checked? How is it argued? With super slow motion? Even with still images that make every contact a foul? Why does it take so long? And after all, who really decides, the referee on the field, or the assistant in front of the screen?"

Spain - https://en.as.com/en/2022/03/07/opinion/1646642765_222497.html - "VAR takes away LaLiga's credibility"

Italy - https://www.juvefc.com/frustration-growing-with-inconsistent-referee-and-var-decisions-in-serie-a/ - "Frustration growing with inconsistent referee and VAR decisions in Serie A"

 

[Audax]

But they've been continually trying to tweak or improve it since it's inception and it's still dragging the game down to new lows. We've got the officials we've got, so any solution along the lines of "we keep it, but use it better" are obviously doomed to failure.

But we're hearing that it's working far better in other competitions (and we've seen it working better in other competitions). There's nothing wrong with the technology. What's wrong is how it's being used, and IMO part of that is who's been given the responsibility of managing it. We knew before VAR even came in that the PGMOL "protects its own" (seen how many times when red cards get challenged post-match?) to the detriment of correct interpretation of the rules. This is part of what has produced a set of low-quality refs in this country, and putting those same low-quality refs in charge of VAR is what's causing the issues.

At least this weekend's round of VAR stuff ups has been so bad it's forced the PGMOL to at least acknowledge the errors - because they were left with no credible way of doing anything else!

What qualifications and experience in officiating the game do these "specifically trained VAR operators" have?

We have a pool of full-time professional referees who are entrusted with officiating the highest level of the game in the country. Based on that alone, I'm not sure why they should be considered the incorrect people to sit behind the VAR screens.

The problem seems to be what is deemed a "clear and obvious error" worthy of subsequent review. But even when that is interpreted incorrectly, and the on-field referee is sent to the monitor, he can still say "thanks, but I'm sticking with my original decision" exactly as Michael Oliver did at Forest on Saturday.

Think the answer to your initial question is in your question itself, at least partially. If they are specially trained explicitly on the use of VAR, that should also include qualifying them on correct officiating of the game. What they lack in on-field experience, they should gain back in the specialist VAR operation training.

I agree with you that the implementation of what constitutes "clear and obvious" appears to be inconsistent. I'd also argue that from what we've seen so far (one stand out case this weekend excepted) is that once VAR steps the on-field ref appears to "err on the side of change" rather than standing their ground. Especially when you have a very experience ref in the VAR seat asking a less experienced on-field ref to double check.

---

My personal opinion: VAR can and should be a net benefit for football. It's proven to be the case in other sports. The implementation in the English Premier League, however, is dreadful. There's no excuse of the errors that were made this weekend (and others we've seen since VAR's introduction) and something needs to change. Immediately, they need to look at other leagues that appear to have better implementation, fewer VAR howlers, and learn from what they've done.

 

[Bozza]

France - https://www.the-star.co.ke/sports/2021-09-28-discontent-growing-over-var-use-in-ligue-1/ "Discontent growing over VAR use in Ligue 1"

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

"It seems" makes it sound like something you're not entirely sure of. Someone saying something on 5Live doesn't make it true.

I've only had a quick google, but other leagues seem to be asking the same kind of questions that we are...

Germany - https://allnewspress.com/var-in-the-bundesliga-the-solutions-are-obvious-sport/ - "And yet, even after five years, every step of the decision-making process is still controversial: When will the VAR intervene? What exactly is checked? How is it argued? With super slow motion? Even with still images that make every contact a foul? Why does it take so long? And after all, who really decides, the referee on the field, or the assistant in front of the screen?"

Spain - https://en.as.com/en/2022/03/07/opinion/1646642765_222497.html - "VAR takes away LaLiga's credibility"

Italy - https://www.juvefc.com/frustration-growing-with-inconsistent-referee-and-var-decisions-in-serie-a/ - "Frustration growing with inconsistent referee and VAR decisions in Serie A"

I asked for data on this earlier in the thread but didn’t get a reply. Nobody seems to know where this often repeated assertion that VAR works better in other leagues comes from.

 

[Swansman]

The take that it is working well in other leagues is based on absolutely nothing. Follow the debate from Serie A, La Liga etc. and you'll find its the exact same shit.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Paul Field, who is the president of The Referees' Association, has been chatting about some of the issues in refereeing on BBC Radio 4 this morning. And delivered a strong line on the current state of affairs.

"The root of the problem frankly is if we really look at it the lack of funding in refereeing around this country is a disgrace. If we’ve got a national product – the cash rich Premier League – that has multi-million pound players.

"Why would a fourteen year old go referee on local parks when they have all this hassle? I do wonder how much talent we have lost over the years when it comes to refereeing in this country because of abuse.”


-the problem appears to be the the Referee's Association have no idea who or what to blame! Is it their funding, the player's income or the abuse? Or is it in fact that for years they have refused to take on criticism, having closed ranks to defend the, sometimes indefensible, mistakes made by their members and now paying the price of rewarding past incompetences.

VAR is not wrong, the people using it are wrong far too often, despite VAR.

It's a fair point, that referees aren't given enough respect at grass roots levels up to the professional game. The authorities should be much stronger in supporting referees to stand up for themselves. Any raised voice to a ref or deliberate touch, even a hand on a shoulder, a straight red and a 6 game ban for me. If rugby players can exercise self control so can football players.

In the long term, that might attract refs other than the "I love abuse in sado masochistic, centre of attention sort of way" types we have at the moment. But be aware that this won't lead to an improvement in officiating for about 10 to 15 years.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Which was fully within the rules. Kavanagh is a poor ref but that is a very strange example.

No rules as we know in football.

Secondly it was wrong as they admitted after as the on field ref blew for full time with three blows of his whistle. If Brighton had all walked off the pitch they’d be nothing they could have done.

 

[Bozza]

Think the answer to your initial question is in your question itself, at least partially. If they are specially trained explicitly on the use of VAR, that should also include qualifying them on correct officiating of the game. What they lack in on-field experience, they should gain back in the specialist VAR operation training.

I agree with you that the implementation of what constitutes "clear and obvious" appears to be inconsistent. I'd also argue that from what we've seen so far (one stand out case this weekend excepted) is that once VAR steps the on-field ref appears to "err on the side of change" rather than standing their ground. Especially when you have a very experience ref in the VAR seat asking a less experienced on-field ref to double check.

I remain to be convinced that we should hand over part of the officiating process to people who are not the highest-rated officials we have.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "VAR operation" but if it means pressing buttons, selecting elements of videos and switching angles etc, then by all means have some techy folk to do that, but surely given the refereeing set-up we have*, it has to be referees who make VAR calls.

It feels to me that the "clear and obvious error" line isn't being followed and once the VAR ref asks an on-field ref to review an incident, there is considerable pressure on them to side with their colleague asking them to make the review. That's entirely understandable, of course. The on-field ref has made a split-second decision in real-time from a single viewpoint where some of the best footballers in the world are travelling at great pace and/or trying to cheat to influence a decision. The on-field ref knows that his colleague will have had the benefit of more time, multiple angles and slo-mo. The man in the VAR booth should be better placed to assess any given incident.

( * Of course, long before VAR there were criticisms of referees from some quarters that they've made an incorrect decisions "because they've never played the game. Anyone who has played will tell you they got that wrong", but since ex-pros have never been a part of on-field officiating, I'm not sure why they would suddenly be involved in the small sub-set of decisions that VAR gets involved in.)

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

This all gives rise to the question, who actually wants it?

The match going public? - Well clearly not. A large percentage despise it. Very few are sticking up for it and fewer still offering realistic suggestions for improvements other than "it needs to be used better".
The TV viewer? Mixed. It gives them a chance to get more crisps
The Referees? I don't think so. Most are in it for a feeling of power, and that power is being eroded by VAR
The Premier League? They must be concerned at the brand damage being caused and they're paying very good money for it.
The big 6 clubs? - Yes, it gets them 5 to 10 points per season. No chance Liverpool and Man City score 90 points per season without it. Man U get into Europe most years because of it
The other 14? - No. For the same reason
The TV companies - Probably yes. Anger and controversy keeps people coming back after that extra set of adverts

That VAR exists still, gives you a good idea of where the balance of power lies in football.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Bringing in automated offsides in for CL and World Cup, what could possibly go wrong.

https://www.fifa.com/technical/medi...chnology-to-be-used-at-fifa-world-cup-2022-tm

 

[borat]

Take away the emotion and the quality of the goal - Mwepu was interfering with play with his attempted overhead kick.

It was offside imho. A shame though

 

[Audax]

I remain to be convinced that we should hand over part of the officiating process to people who are not the highest-rated officials we have.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "VAR operation" but if it means pressing buttons, selecting elements of videos and switching angles etc, then by all means have some techy folk to do that, but surely given the refereeing set-up we have*, it has to be referees who make VAR calls.

It feels to me that the "clear and obvious error" line isn't being followed and once the VAR ref asks an on-field ref to review an incident, there is considerable pressure on them to side with their colleague asking them to make the review. That's entirely understandable, of course. The on-field ref has made a split-second decision in real-time from a single viewpoint where some of the best footballers in the world are travelling at great pace and/or trying to cheat to influence a decision. The on-field ref knows that his colleague will have had the benefit of more time, multiple angles and slo-mo. The man in the VAR booth should be better placed to assess any given incident.

( * Of course, long before VAR there were criticisms of referees from some quarters that they've made an incorrect decisions "because they've never played the game. Anyone who has played will tell you they got that wrong", but since ex-pros have never been a part of on-field officiating, I'm not sure why they would suddenly be involved in the small sub-set of decisions that VAR gets involved in.)

Re: "VAR operation" I mean things like clear and consistent interpretation of "clear and obvious", how long to review before abandoning the review if they're struggling to decide, clear and consistent decision making on when to invite the on-field ref to review and when to simply tell them they've made a howler, etc. And, yes, it would include an element of how to make best use of the technology available to them as part of it. But it's not the simple side of it I mean (so not the "pushing buttons" side but rather selecting angles to view, how to interpret the footage from multiple angles, etc).

One area I'd start with is there should be transparent post-round reviews of how VAR was used. Key word being transparent: the reviews should produce reports, and those reports should be published for all to see and read. Too much of how VAR is implemented is kept secret. I'd follow that with, as others have suggested, making the actual decision making process transparent as well. Make it part of the fan experience - broadcast the conversations that the VAR officials and on-field refs are having. If they know that the process they are going through is being listened to in real time, perhaps they might get better at arriving at better decisions. And, yes, I would consider inserting specially trained independent operators into the process. Maybe not removing the on-field refs entirely, but also not relying on them 100%. Making decisions on-field vs in the VAR booth are *not* the same and just because someone is a proven on-field ref does not necessarily mean they are best equipped for handling the different processes and stresses involved in VAR.

 

[Swansman]

Bringing in automated offsides in for CL and World Cup, what could possibly go wrong.

https://www.fifa.com/technical/medi...chnology-to-be-used-at-fifa-world-cup-2022-tm

Not much I imagine.

VAR is a result of fans, managers and players demanding perfection and computers are going to be able to provide that sooner rather than later.

In elite football, the ref in 20 years is going to be a bloke sitting on the sideline in front of a screen.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

It took over 4 minutes yesterday to determine a close call for offside for a player that didn't touch the ball. The reason given was they had trouble to draw the lines due to the positioning of the cameras in relation to the players. So frankly they guessed with the lines mm away from each other that this player who didn't touch the ball was offside.

Meanwhile those of us in the stadium sit there after seeing a superb goal wondering wtf is going on.

The sooner Riley **** off from football the better.

So the games on Saturday have suddenly made them take notice, they say they will report to the club's, what about the shocking decisions, such as Welbeck's? And they will report to the clubs, that's crap they need to be on TV/Radio explaining it to the poor fans who sit in the stands week after week completely confused about the latest debacle.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Utter agreement from me here Dave, but it needs people to act, to campaign, to cause a stink. It also needs those that feel nitpicking to be an admirable trait to be shown the error of their ways. Yes, Mwepu was offside, but so so fxxkin what? I don’t care if it might have affected the outcome because it didn’t, and even if it might have, again I say ‘so what’. To remove possibly the best goal from a Brighton player in the last few years, a goal which I believe would have been close to being the Premier League goal of the season already, and removing not only the joyous reaction from fans right there and then, but also from future celebrations is just not worth the ever so minor improvements that VAR has brought in.

Personally I have always believed that if referees are supervised correctly then decisions right or wrong even themselves over a season.

@FansAgainstVAR_

That is the focus on twatter.

 

[kevo]

I remain to be convinced that we should hand over part of the officiating process to people who are not the highest-rated officials we have.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "VAR operation" but if it means pressing buttons, selecting elements of videos and switching angles etc, then by all means have some techy folk to do that, but surely given the refereeing set-up we have*, it has to be referees who make VAR calls.

It feels to me that the "clear and obvious error" line isn't being followed and once the VAR ref asks an on-field ref to review an incident, there is considerable pressure on them to side with their colleague asking them to make the review. That's entirely understandable, of course. The on-field ref has made a split-second decision in real-time from a single viewpoint where some of the best footballers in the world are travelling at great pace and/or trying to cheat to influence a decision. The on-field ref knows that his colleague will have had the benefit of more time, multiple angles and slo-mo. The man in the VAR booth should be better placed to assess any given incident.

( * Of course, long before VAR there were criticisms of referees from some quarters that they've made an incorrect decisions "because they've never played the game. Anyone who has played will tell you they got that wrong", but since ex-pros have never been a part of on-field officiating, I'm not sure why they would suddenly be involved in the small sub-set of decisions that VAR gets involved in.)

If VAR can't decide and it requires the ref to check the monitor, surely by definition it means it's not a clear and obvious error?

 

[Dick Swiveller]

No rules as we know in football.

Secondly it was wrong as they admitted after as the on field ref blew for full time with three blows of his whistle. If Brighton had all walked off the pitch they’d be nothing they could have done.

IFAB Law 7.4 - On duration of match
If a penalty kick has to be taken or retaken, the half is extended until the penalty kick is completed.

IFAB Law 2 also states: "If at the end of the half, the referee leaves the field of play to go to the referee review area (RRA) or to instruct the players to return to the field of play, this does not prevent a decision being changed for an incident which occurred before the end of the half."

https://www.skysports.com/football/...runo-fernandes-goal-after-final-whistle-stood

 

[BBassic]

If VAR can't decide and it requires the ref to check the monitor, surely by definition it means it's not a clear and obvious error?

Quite.

Using lines to determine if someone's pubic hair is offside isn't clear and obvious.

 

[Arthritic Toe]

Re: "VAR operation" I mean things like clear and consistent interpretation of "clear and obvious"

That is impossible. Its a vague statement - you cant make a clear and consistent definition of a vague statement.

The whole VAR thing - its introduction in the first place and how it has evolved has been influenced by idiot managers and pundits who are incapable of thinking the whole thing through, but seem to carry weight with the FA.

The season before last, they moaned that refs never go over to the pitch-side monitor. Now we have the farcical situation where the ref wastes 2 minutes trotting over to the monitor only to confirm the VAR decision (with very few exceptions).
These actions need to be designed by experts who are capable of logical full-process analysis - not by idiot ex-footballers and whinging managers.