[Football] "It's not VAR, it's the people running it"

[beorhthelm]

It feels like my posts might be read as defending VAR, but they're really not. I'm as frustrated as everyone else and was booing loudly from the WSU during that torturous wait yesterday.

However, I'm not sure I agree with your post...

You say: the first question is "have the officials made a clear and obvious error?"...

...but offside isn't subject to CAOE

think the point is it should be subject to clear and obvious. if the nth official cant see its obviously called wrong in say 10 seconds, its not obvious, give benefit of doubt to the attacker. as i believe the guidance was before VAR. currently we have VAR employed to check to an accuracy that is not possible, applied inconsistently and incorrectly.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It feels like my posts might be read as defending VAR, but they're really not. I'm as frustrated as everyone else and was booing loudly from the WSU during that torturous wait yesterday.

However, I'm not sure I agree with your post...

You say: the first question is "have the officials made a clear and obvious error?"...

...but offside isn't subject to CAOE. I've not watched the TV coverage back, so I don't have the benefit of watching the VAR review from beginning to end. But, as things stand, VAR have to determine if offside is a factor. If Mwepu had connected, and scored, then the goal would have been cancelled out because he was determined to be offside. By all accounts it took a long time to determine that for technical reasons. (As I've said before, I completely agree with the frustrations that come from these forensic line-drawing decisions on this).

Once they determined the believed Mwepu was offside it seems they then handed over to the on-field ref to determine the extend of his interference, if any.

Like [MENTION=1313]BadFish[/MENTION], I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to interference from an offisde position. Pretty much if you're there, you're interfering as defenders need to adjust their play based on the attacker - they can't afford to gamble whether offside will save them or not.

Like everyone else though, I went loopy for the goal and I'm gutted it was overturned.

Absolutely. Any connection by Mwepu with the ball or other player, or blocking the keeper's view etc. then he is definitely interfering with play and you can check the offside lines.

However, I compare this to an LBW in cricket, you don't even bother checking ball tracking if the bowler has bowled a no-ball or the batsmen got a nick on it. I think VAR could have avoided the time on the offside lines by looking at the Mwepu overhead kick attempt, is it clear and obvious he's interfered with play? No, move on, irrelevant he came from an offside position or not.

What I am assuming happened is this, VAR checked the offside first and spent forever doing it because it was tighter than a knats chaff. Then after spending forever on that, they then poured over whether Mwepu was interfering - now the crucial part is, after all that in the VAR office they decided it was inconclusive because otherwise they have the authority to chalk off the goal for offside without consulting the referee. So this whole thing boiled down to a subjective opinion on Mwepu interfering hence absolutely it was totally about a clear and obvious error on the part of the officials. They didn't make a clear and obvious error. Had they chalked it off on-field, I'd have little complaints with that either.

 

[BadFish]

I am just watching the game and there was also a penalty missed. Foul by Maddison on Mwepu?

Unlucky not to get that one.

 

[GT49er]

Offside is not subject to CAOE, but whether the player who is offside is interfering with play certainly is - it's a subjective decision.

 

[Braggfan]

I'm sure Leicester fans will say it was offside and I get that. But before VAR, I can't imagine there was a single goal disallowed in the circumstances that MacAllister's was yesterday. I can't believe in the history of the game, a linesman ever looked at a goal like that and went, "yep that's offside". The decision was purely the result of the level of scrutiny VAR puts on everything, and that is surely not the purpose of it. Its there to correct clear and obvious decisions. If he hadn't hit that ball at a thousand miles an hour into the top corner, but had controlled it and passed it around a bit, no free kick would have been given for offside and nobody would have batted an eyelid.

 

[Swansman]

I am just watching the game and there was also a penalty missed. Foul by Maddison on Mwepu?

Unlucky not to get that one.

Yup. VAR had a (very quick) look at it and decided to shrug and move on, probably since the game was already done. If it had been 2-2 at that point they would probably had a closer look.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Yup. VAR had a (very quick) look at it and decided to shrug and move on, probably since the game was already done. If it had been 2-2 at that point they would probably had a closer look.

Having watched the Sky coverage back, although Maddison did get the ball, his other leg completely wiped Mwepu out - would be a foul anywhere else on the pitch.

 

[moggy]

VAR should be run with an ex-pro in attendance.
A Gary Neville, Jamie carragher type people

 

[GT49er]

Can a mod please change the first 'n' in running in the thread title to an 'i'?

 

[Bodian]

There was a defender behind Mwepu (this still is just as they all start moving, not sure it's relationship with when the ball was kicked).. But why was everything only from one angle - surely they have a camera on the other side which could/would have helped?



Having said all we have said, it would make it all a lot better if we simply tried to stop being offside from free-kicks. I remember Murray was often offside at free-kicks, and it used to annoy me no end!

 

[Bodian]

Can a mod please change the first 'n' in running in the thread title to an 'i'?

That's what I thought it said anyway!!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Can a mod please change the first 'n' in running in the thread title to an 'i'?

A mod wrote it in the first place

I see what you've done and I don't disagree but the thread title mirrors the title of the BBC piece and what someone (Shearer?) said on MOTD.

Having said all we have said, it would make it all a lot better if we simply tried to stop being offside from free-kicks. I remember Murray was often offside at free-kicks, and it used to annoy me no end!

Not as easy as you would think. With the modern high line you can get caught fractionally offside using four and a half minutes of line drawing pedantry very easily as it just takes a fraction of movement in either direction (assuming VAR can get the correct freeze frame which I'm still not convinced it does).

That said Murray often used to be off by yards

 

[father_and_son]

It's a fair point, that referees aren't given enough respect at grass roots levels up to the professional game. The authorities should be much stronger in supporting referees to stand up for themselves. Any raised voice to a ref or deliberate touch, even a hand on a shoulder, a straight red and a 6 game ban for me. If rugby players can exercise self control so can football players.

In the long term, that might attract refs other than the "I love abuse in sado masochistic, centre of attention sort of way" types we have at the moment. But be aware that this won't lead to an improvement in officiating for about 10 to 15 years.

Rules are already in place and things like crowding the referee could be eliminated overnight, all it would take is for a referee to book *everyone* except the two captains who get in their face whenever a decision is made.

But they choose not to. Hence my opinion that referees have brought this situation on themselves entirely and the mis-use of VAR, instead of helping them appear professional and impartial is just highlighting just how bad they are.

It is recoverable but takes the officials to show some back-bone on the field and, *mostly*, shut up when they are in their little TV enabled bunker.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Rules are already in place and things like crowding the referee could be eliminated overnight, all it would take is for a referee to book *everyone* except the two captains who get in their face whenever a decision is made.

But they choose not to. Hence my opinion that referees have brought this situation on themselves entirely and the mis-use of VAR, instead of helping them appear professional and impartial is just highlighting just how bad they are.

It is recoverable but takes the officials to show some back-bone on the field and, *mostly*, shut up when they are in their little TV enabled bunker.

They don't do it because they know they would never be backed by the football authorities and would be at Port Vale the following week. Giving out 6 cards in one incident and finishing matches with 9 v 9 is seen as weak refereeing. The opposite should be true. I like most other football fans long to see players show more respect to refs and if that means more cards, then fine let's go through that pain barrier. It won't be for ever.

To me it starts with the assessors. They should be tasked to negatively mark officials who put up with bad language and abuse. Crucially the officials need to be backed by the authorities when taking a stand.

 

[father_and_son]

They don't do it because they know they would never be backed by the football authorities and would be at Port Vale the following week. Giving out 6 cards in one incident and finishing matches with 9 v 9 is seen as weak refereeing. The opposite should be true. I like most other football fans long to see players show more respect to refs and if that means more cards, then fine let's go through that pain barrier. It won't be for ever.

To me it starts with the assessors. They should be tasked to negatively mark officials who put up with bad language and abuse. Crucially the officials need to be backed by the authorities when taking a stand.

I'm not talking about one ref, just randomly trying to clean up football in one game on a Saturday.

Announce it, publicise it, follow through with it across all games one weekend (and ongoing). It would be a short-lived period of pain for a few (one high profile club in particular who live & die by this intimation tactic) and then it would be reflected on as a huge win for common sense and a good platform to get rid of all the other sh*t that ruins games for most (and accept this is about most, not all) fans.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I'm not talking about one ref, just randomly trying to clean up football in one game on a Saturday.

Announce it, publicise it, follow through with it across all games one weekend (and ongoing). It would be a short-lived period of pain for a few (one high profile club in particular who live & die by this intimation tactic) and then it would be reflected on as a huge win for common sense and a good platform to get rid of all the other sh*t that ruins games for most (and accept this is about most, not all) fans.

We agree. It needs to be a concerted effort with all parties bought in and the clubs and players involved. The structures would need to be put in place for this attempt at discipline not to be a forgotten by September flash in the pan as we've seen so many times before.

 

[drew]

Rules are already in place and things like crowding the referee could be eliminated overnight, all it would take is for a referee to book *everyone* except the two captains who get in their face whenever a decision is made.

But they choose not to. Hence my opinion that referees have brought this situation on themselves entirely and the mis-use of VAR, instead of helping them appear professional and impartial is just highlighting just how bad they are.

It is recoverable but takes the officials to show some back-bone on the field and, *mostly*, shut up when they are in their little TV enabled bunker.

Have to agree with you. If refs applied the rules from the first minute to the last and used the rules that are available, a lot of crap would be cut out. If refs booked players who crowd them then they will stop doing it but let's not forget their boss is Mike Riley who famously was trying to appease 'Wayne' whilst the player was ranting at him!!

I remember a quite a few years ago where they experimented with moving free kicks forward 10 yrds if there was dissent and hardly any ref did it despite the fact you still saw loads of players still protesting.

 

[Bozza]

Having said all we have said, it would make it all a lot better if we simply tried to stop being offside from free-kicks. I remember Murray was often offside at free-kicks, and it used to annoy me no end!

Someone said earlier about how this goal would never have been disallowed pre-VAR. I started to type a reply, but lost the will to live and backed out of it. But your post has prompted me to make the point I was going to...

In the "old days", we may not have got to the point of Mac Alister lashing it home because, as you allude to, the lino may have flagged for offside at the point the free-kick was taken with the ref immediately blowing up. We had multiple players in what could be offside positions (I intentionally say "could" because, as we all know, those kind of marginal decisions were often incorrect, which is why we now have VAR). as the ball was whipped in.

In the car on the way home we listened to BBC SCR and I'm pretty sure that on the commentary for this passage of play, Johnny Cantor mentioned the number of players in offside positions as the ball came over. That commentary doesn't seem to have made the cut on their twitter feed, so I can't validate that now though.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Ref watch, Gallagher has surpassed himself today. Says the Newcastle goal disallowed by VAR should have been a penalty for the push and not just awarded as a goal due to the Newcastle player fouling the keeper after he was pushed. He's mad, how can you foul someone when you have been pushed into them? That's not a foul. Does that mean if you are wiped out and in doing so you collude with another player and injure them you can be sent off? The consequence of the push was he collided with the keeper, tough.

 

[rippleman]

I am just watching the game and there was also a penalty missed. Foul by Maddison on Mwepu?

Unlucky not to get that one.

The Argie Mac "foul" on the cheat Maddison which saw Mac booked was a dive. Looked like a foul live. Replay showed no contact and that Maddison took a dive.

"Clear and obvious" error by the ref. Freekick and booking should have been reversed.