ISIS have apparently burned the Jordanian pilot alive

[Questions]

Barbaric people living in the bloody stone age, having said that I am sure there are Christians, and other religious beliefs that would and have done similar be it here, Africa or the USA....

Religion is for weak people

You're right. 1.8 % of Rwanda is Muslim but quite a few of the 98.8% Christiam population seemed to be handy with machetes. A million died there .........bloody barbaric Christians.

 

[StonehamPark]

I refer you to my previous post. They clearly are Muslims:

You're going to have to help me out here then. ISIS was formed by a Muslim cleric, it's leaders are all fanatically Muslim, it's acolytes are all avowedly Muslim, the aims of ISIS are all based on their reading of the Koran and every act is done in the name of Mohammed. Oh, and ISIS stands for 'Islamic State of Iraq and Syria'.

No offence but I don't think it's ignorant to suggest that there might be a common factor here.



Don't bring religion into it? Sorry, but that did make me laugh! How the hell do you try to eradicate an organisation whose raison d'etre is their faith without bringing religion into it? Jesus wept - the linguistic knots some people tie themselves up in trying to disassociate ISIS with Islam!

As I said, again, they're not "True Muslims".
They've interpreted the Koran in their own twisted way and are condemned by many Muslim Clerics and Muslims in general.

Are Zionist Extremists a true reflection on Judaism? No
Is Boko Haram a true reflection on Muslims/Islam? No
Is the WBC/KKK a true reflection on Christianity? No
Is the Bodu Bala Sena a true reflection on Buddhism? No
Is Abhinav Bharat a true reflection on Hinduism? No

So what makes you think ISIS are a true reflection on Islam/Muslims?

 

[Bold Seagull]

Barbaric people living in the bloody stone age, having said that I am sure there are Christians, and other religious beliefs that would and have done similar be it here, Africa or the USA....

Religion is for weak people

Exactly what I was trying to say, only this is clearer and to the point.

 

[StonehamPark]

It should a two pronged attack - one being a military responce including airstrikes and ground troops. The ground troops should be Arab ones.

There needs to be a lot of pressure put on the moderate Muslim community to stop extremist views in Mosques. It should also include severe prison sentences for those who preach hate or join groups like ISIS.

What won't help is mass genocide by the West.

The middle paragraph is totally key, in my opinion.
It's a difficult ask but I think world leaders of Muslim countries (Iraq/Iran/Pakistan/Saudi) should make an official stand to condemn the extremists and impose extremely harsh sentences for anyone affiliated with ISIS or any other terrorist group.

The two pronged attack, if executed perfectly, would of course be the ideal method. However, I can only see that dragging out over a number of years and not really improving anything, if making matters worse.

The way I see that option is if you were to imagine herding 1000 cows into a pen.
You've got 12 ranchers herding and now the cattle divide into multiple smaller herds, becoming extremely difficult, if not impossible to move properly/efficiently.
Similar to Herrick/Afghan.

 

[Buzzer]

As I said, again, they're not "True Muslims".
They've interpreted the Koran in their own twisted way and are condemned by many Muslim Clerics and Muslims in general.

Are Zionist Extremists a true reflection on Judaism? No
Is Boko Haram a true reflection on Muslims/Islam? No
Is the WBC/KKK a true reflection on Christianity? No
Is the Bodu Bala Sena a true reflection on Buddhism? No
Is Abhinav Bharat a true reflection on Hinduism? No

So what makes you think ISIS are a true reflection on Islam/Muslims?

I'm sorry. I didn't realise that you are a Muslim scholar and able to tell me that they aren't true Muslims.

I'm being flippant but I think the point stands. They ARE true Muslims. There is absolutely no doubt about it. They might not reflect the majority position (if the majority is moderate) but they are most certainly practising Muslims who dutifully study the Koran and believe they are carrying out the word of God through their interpretation of the Koran. Their religion guides every aspect of their waking lives and as such it's absolute nonsense to suggest that they are not TRUE muslims. It's another argument to say that their reading of the Koran is distorted but extremist Muslims are still very much Muslims as much as Boko Haream are still Muslims and Zionists are still very much Jews.

I'd also add that I doubt very much you've done much studying of the Koran whereas every single member of ISIS has so you and I are in no position to deny them the right to call themselves Muslims.

 

[Soulman]

t

are they going to sort out the problems of our own citizens supporting this, or acting on their behalf in Europe? Leaving this thing alone so it hopefully leaves us alone is not a realistic option or a likely successful strategy.

I know that really. I just do not want to see us caught up in another war where we will be blamed when the Middle East will keep kicking off for years maybe centuries after. Meanwhile it will cost millions and a large loss of life for a religious battle thousands of miles away.

 

[StonehamPark]

I'm sorry. I didn't realise that you are a Muslim scholar and able to tell me that they aren't true Muslims.

I'm being flippant but I think the point stands. They ARE true Muslims. There is absolutely no doubt about it.

Wow. Now it just seems like you're arguing for the sake of it.
I can't debate with someone so ignorant.

 

[Brovion]

... having said that I am sure there are Christians, and other religious beliefs that would and have done similar be it here, Africa or the USA....

...

Only they don't, do they? You have to really trawl the internet to find examples of modern Christian religious violence. Yes they do exist, but to equate them to ISIL is taking moral equivalence to a ridiculous extreme.

... Religion is for weak people

That's a different argument completely. What is relevant though is that when Christians see something like a blasphemous TV programme they go 'tch'. Some of the really radical ones might write a stiff letter to "Points of View" (and they will be mocked for doing that). What they will NOT do is go to the office of the programme makers, shoot everybody and then leave shouting "We have avenged the Son of God!" When something like that happens again and again and again and again (and don't forget Muslims tend to overreact most times they encounter blasphemy) - come back to me.

 

[Simster]

Wow. Now it just seems like you're arguing for the sake of it.
I can't debate with someone so ignorant.

Sorry, but he's right. They are muslim. It's indisputable.

You're getting beaten with ease, and are accusing him of being ignorant simply because of this fact. Are you still at sixth form?

 

[Buzzer]

Wow. Now it just seems like you're arguing for the sake of it.
I can't debate with someone so ignorant.

Where exactly have I been ignorant? I'm not arguing for the sake of it, I stand very much by the statement that ISIS are TRUE Muslims in exactly the same way that Zionist Jews are still true Jews and I explained as such in detail. They are extremist, their views and actions are unpalatable to us in the West but they are very, very much a religious organisation. They have chosen to interpret their holy book in a way that seems perverse to us but you simply can't deny them the right to call themselves Muslim.

There are many flavours of Islam and ISIS is one of them but all of them are as 'true' as the next. They all follow the Koran, it's just the interpretation that's different. They ARE true Muslims.

It's you, with your head in the sand over this, that chooses to make himself ignorant.

 

[Insel affe]

Only they don't, do they? You have to really trawl the internet to find examples of modern Christian religious violence. Yes they do exist, but to equate them to ISIL is taking moral equivalence to a ridiculous extreme.

Africa you don't have to look far.

That's a different argument completely. What is relevant though is that when Christians see something like a blasphemous TV programme they go 'tch'. Some of the really radical ones might write a stiff letter to "Points of View" (and they will be mocked for doing that). What they will NOT do is go to the office of the programme makers, shoot everybody and then leave shouting "We have avenged the Son of God!" When something like that happens again and again and again and again (and don't forget Muslims tend to overreact most times they encounter blasphemy) - come back to me.

America they tend not to write a stiff letter

I understand what your saying, and to a degree agree, however I do not wish to argue about it as I find religion tedious as I said for weak people who need to be told how to think, act, dress, what to like what not like and even when they can switch a bloody light on ? I mean come on

 

[StonehamPark]

Sorry, but he's right. They are muslim. It's indisputable.

You're getting beaten with ease, and are accusing him of being ignorant simply because of this fact. Are you still at sixth form?

Read the posts properly and then feel free to contribute to the debate.

 

[pastafarian]

As I said, again, they're not "True Muslims".
They've interpreted the Koran in their own twisted way and are condemned by many Muslim Clerics and Muslims in general.

Is this the sort of thing that ISIS are interpreting in a twisted way?

"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment," (Qur'an 5:33)

 

[Brovion]

Africa you don't have to look far.




America they tend not to write a stiff letter

I understand what your saying, and to a degree agree, however I do not wish to argue about it as I find religion tedious as I said for weak people who need to be told how to think, act, dress, what to like what not like and even when they can switch a bloody light on ? I mean come on

You see? You're struggling to find anything like ISIL in the Christian world. Even America Christian nutters cannot hold a candle to Islamic ones.

 

[Simster]

Read the posts properly and then feel free to contribute to the debate.

I have thanks. This is what we've got so far:

You: They're not true Muslims
Buzzer: Yes they are. They've studied the Koran at length, their organisation is named after Islam, their aims are based on the teachings of the Koran, they were formed by a Muslim cleric. They are Muslim.
You: They're not because they twist the Koran. Same as Zionists aren't true Jews
Buzzer: But Zionists are true Jews. Are we debating whether ISIS are extremists or whether they are Muslim?
You: Bah. I'm losing in the fact of cold facts. Easily. Sorry, what I mean is I just can't debate with someone as ignorant as you.

Do tell me if I'm missing anything. If not, feel free to shuffle off back to the Upper 6th common room.

 

[StonehamPark]

Is this the sort of thing that ISIS are interpreting in a twisted way?

"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment," (Qur'an 5:33)

That interprets to me as: "Anyone who wants to wage war against Islam should be killed"
I imagine ISIS interpret that as: "Any person whom belongs to any country which harms or opposes any Muslim person in any way, shape or form, should be killed".

Is anyone waging war against Islam? No.

That's just the way I see it.

 

[User removed 4]

It should a two pronged attack - one being a military responce including airstrikes and ground troops. The ground troops should be Arab ones.

There needs to be a lot of pressure put on the moderate Muslim community to stop extremist views in Mosques. It should also include severe prison sentences for those who preach hate or join groups like ISIS.

What won't help is mass genocide by the West.

The trouble is mate is that most of them tend to be not very good, hence ISIS progress so far, those that are any good, there aren't enough of them.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You see? You're struggling to find anything like ISIL in the Christian world. Even America Christian nutters cannot hold a candle to Islamic ones.

A struggle? He pointed you to Africa, not really that hard to find….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army
http://time.com/42131/anti-balaka-central-african-republic/

 

[vegster]

Is this the sort of thing that ISIS are interpreting in a twisted way?

"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment," (Qur'an 5:33)

Does the caveat "They be exiled from the land " mean they have to live on a houseboat then ?

 

[StonehamPark]

I have thanks. This is what we've got so far:

You: They're not true Muslims
Buzzer: Yes they are. They've studied the Koran at length, their organisation is named after Islam, their aims are based on the teachings of the Koran, they were formed by a Muslim cleric. They are Muslim.
You: They're not because they twist the Koran. Same as Zionists aren't true Jews
Buzzer: But Zionists are true Jews. Are we debating whether ISIS are extremists or whether they are Muslim?
You: Bah. I'm losing in the fact of cold facts. Easily. Sorry, what I mean is I just can't debate with someone as ignorant as you.

Do tell me if I'm missing anything. If not, feel free to shuffle off back to the Upper 6th common room.

What's with the bizarre 6th form references, you've got no idea who I am.
If you want to debate, let's debate. Keep your ridiculously immature insults to yourself.

In your above post, you've kind of got it correct, but somewhere along the lines someone's misread or miss-interpreted the argument, maybe I've miss-typed.

What I previously posts was; ISIS aren't a true reflection of Muslims/Islam, in the same way that the WBC aren't a true reflection on Baptists/Christians and Zionists aren't a true reflection on Judaism.

They are all terror groups, creating chaos and violence 'in the name of _________ ".

The argument is, ISIS aren't true Muslims as they don't behave and have the ideals that the vast majority of Muslims do.
The same above statement goes for Boko Haram , BBS, WBC, KKK etc, etc.

If you disagree with any of the above, talk. I'd be genuinely interested to see if people disagree with that and why.