Is the smoking ban over the top ?.

[Cian]

Actually, let me just back myself up with Central Statistics Office figures - available to all on cso.ie

Smoking ban came in on, erm, March 2004, I think.

"Hospitality": Pubs, hotels and restuarants (all of which had to put blanket smoking bans in)

March to May 2004: 107.8 thousand employed

March to May 2005: 111.0 thousand employed

Right, so wheres the drop off then?

 

[London Calling]

Every day around 30 people die in the U.K. as a result of second-hand smoke. Today's vote will mean the beginning of the end to these frightening statistics," said Dr. Vivienne Nathanson, head of ethics and science at the British Medical Association.


And from scotland...

"There are ghosts sitting in the Cottage bar in Glasgow's Calton area. The locals call them the missing generation, the men who died before their time. Sometimes the drinkers dip their heads or lift their pints to them. They may not see them but all the drinkers know they are there. Jimmy, Swifty, Davy and many more.
For here in this multi-deprived inner city area, the average life expectancy of a male is just 53.9 years. In Iraq, after 10 years of sanctions, a war and a continuing conflict, suicide bombs and insurgency, the average man has a good chance of making it into his 60s; the life expectancy of a male there is 67.49. In Iran it is 69.96, in North Korea, 71.37 and in the Gaza Strip it is 70.5."

And from Europe the following independent studies state

Pub smoking ban 'does not harm profits'
BANNING smoking in pubs and bars does not the damage profits of the hospitality industry, campaigners have said.

A report, presented at the Smokefree Europe conference in Luxembourg, compared statistics in areas that have already introduced smokefree legislation, such as Ireland, and data on drinking trends across Europe.

It found that a Europe-wide trend to drink alcohol at home rather than in bars and pubs appeared to account for the apparent downturn in trade after the Irish smoking ban was introduced in 2004.

The Government is shortly expected to begin consultation on smoking restrictions in enclosed public places in England.

The current plan is to ban smoking in the majority of enclosed public areas and workplaces by 2008, but with exemptions for pubs that do not serve prepared food.

But Cancer Research UK says such a move will still leave thousands of workers unprotected and wants a comprehensive ban, such as that seen in Ireland.

Report author Luk Joossens, from the Association of European Cancer Leagues, of which Cancer Research UK is a member, said: "Tobacco companies are at pains to show that smoking bans in bars and restaurants have a negative impact on business and lead to drops in sales and job losses.

"They frequently use anecdotal facts and speculative projections to make these claims.

"But rigorous analysis of studies from Ireland, New York, British Columbia and other places shows that smokefree legislation does not damage profits.

"In some places it could even have a positive economic effect."

Mr Joossens said the main argument used by the tobacco industry was that drinking and smoking go together.

Irish

If this was the case one would have expected a ban on smoking in pubs to affect Ireland, as the Irish drink more in bars than any other European nationality.

"But the evidence shows that the ban did not affect Ireland's bar economy.

"In fact, using objective measures such as till receipts and peer reviewed research, it is clear that going smokefree has not damaged the economy of any country examined so far," he said.

Irish hospitality industry representatives have estimated losses in the pub trade of between 15-25% since the ban was enforced.

But Mr Joossens said the actual decrease in alcohol sales was in line with declines that started in 2002.

People are now drinking more alcohol at home across Europe - the estimated share of beer sales consumed at home in Ireland increased from 12% in 2000 to 23% in 2003.

In the UK, share of beer sales consumed at home also increased from 12% in 1980 to 33% in 2000 and 39% in 2003.

Mr Joossens said governments needed to consider these drinking trends when judging the success of future smokefree laws, including the smoking ban planned for Scotland.

Jean King, Cancer Research UK's director of tobacco control, said: "Going smokefree protects bar workers and customers from the serious health risks associated with second-hand smoke and can help the vast majority of smokers who want to give up.

"Because the Irish smokefree law covered all licensed premises, it created a level playing field for the pub trade.

"This was undoubtedly an important factor in ensuring that no elements of the hospitality trade were affected.

"This detailed analysis stresses the importance of using objective measures to evaluate the effects of smokefree legislation, rather than anecdotal evidence and statistics described out of context."

 

[Cian]

So why are the BII, The Publican, The Morning Advertiser etc. etc. all saying that trade has decreased dramatically - i.e. beyond what was expected? None of them have an agenda on the subject to push.

You honestly think a publicans magazine doesn't have an agenda to push over a smoking ban? riiight.

Back up your statement that jobs have increased, and I'll respond to your "rubbishing" of my statement.

See my previous post. In the one year after the ban, there were 3,200 more jobs in "hospitality" in Ireland than there was before the ban. That includes pubs (where smoking was banned), restuarants (where smoking was banned) and hotels (where smoking was, erm, banned).

Figures are from the Central Statistics Office of the Irish Government.

 

[Grendel]

Actually, let me just back myself up with Central Statistics Office figures - available to all on cso.ie

Smoking ban came in on, erm, March 2004, I think.

"Hospitality": Pubs, hotels and restuarants (all of which had to put blanket smoking bans in)

March to May 2004: 107.8 thousand employed

March to May 2005: 111.0 thousand employed

Right, so wheres the drop off then?

Fair enough, I'll accept that.

 

[Grendel]

You honestly think a publicans magazine doesn't have an agenda to push over a smoking ban? riiight.

Have you ever read any of them?

 

[Cian]

Have you ever read any of them?

I've not read the UK ones, but I have read the IVF's monthly or whatever diatribes to members. Which forever have this "our industry is f***ed!! Put another 10c on the pint so you can retire and let some idiot take over your massively profitable pub that might not be as massively profitable in a years time!!!" attitude to them. However I wouldn't expect the average trade magazine for any trade to not have an agenda over something that "threatens" them.

 

[Springal]

Top ban - well overdue!!

Most pubs will just introduce a "smoking garden" anyway with some heaters or something, no big deal

 

[Mr Popkins]

I find one of the worst places for people smoking is in the Bookies.

at last i can take my time placing a bet instead of hurrying as im coughing to death!!

 

[Cian]

I find one of the worst places for people smoking is in the Bookies.

at last i can take my time placing a bet instead of hurrying as im coughing to death!!

Again, banned here and I doubt the bookies have been losing much in the way of sales.

 

[Grendel]

I've not read the UK ones, but I have read the IVF's monthly or whatever diatribes to members. Which forever have this "our industry is f***ed!! Put another 10c on the pint so you can retire and let some idiot take over your massively profitable pub that might not be as massively profitable in a years time!!!" attitude to them. However I wouldn't expect the average trade magazine for any trade to not have an agenda over something that "threatens" them.

The Publican and Morning Advertiser both take the stance that the landlord should decide whether to allow smoking i.e. if you personally think you'll do better out of banning it then do so. Both have carried stories of food-led pubs that have banned smoking and seen their trade increase. Likewise, drink-led pubs that have banned smoking and hit the rocks. Neither are biased towards one or the other.

 

[bhaexpress]

You honestly think a publicans magazine doesn't have an agenda to push over a smoking ban? riiight.

There's a pretty last mark on cigarettes that's true.

 

[Grendel]

There's a pretty last mark on cigarettes that's true.

Do you mean gross profit? If you do, it's approximately 9p a packet. The pub I used to work in made about a fiver a week out of cigarettes.

 

[Cian]

Another thing I doubt the VFI (checked what order the acronym was in ) mention in their propaganda is maintaince costs. My local is bloody huge because of the students that are there during the week (I live in one of these suburbs thats overwhelmed by a massive university), and they were repainting the ceiling every three weeks, replacing seats that got burns on them, replacing carpets, etc every few months

The carpets that were put in after the ban are still there. Its hard to notice if they're repainting all the time (no yellowing ceilings to go by) and I haven't noticed them having to change many of the seats since

Thats a -massive- cost to them gone.

 

[Grendel]

repainting the ceiling every three weeks

I don't think the ceilings been painted in my local for years!

 

[chip]

Someone drinking in a pub does not directly affect the health of the pub workers and clientelle.

Somebody smoking does.

FACT

They do when they smash a glass in their face or run them over in the car park. Or even when they are clogging up A&E on a Friday or Saturday night or having a fight with the ambulance driver.

FACT

 

[NMH]

Yes, BAN smoking in enclosed public places as it forces others to accept bad air in every pub social environment.

I like beer, but I don't like alcohol. It is a stupid drug, it makes people stupid, angry, violent and slows their brain. It's a depressant anyway, so it cannot be called a mood enhancer or elevater.

For all I care they can take the alcohol out, then I can drink more (and not suffer a headache next morning either).

 

[DIFFBROOK]

Someone mentioned beer gardens? Does it include beer gardens If not I suppose all smokers will take over beer gardens and us non smokers will not be able to have a meal on a summers day without the accompanying smoke.

 

[Cian]

Someone mentioned beer gardens? Does it include beer gardens If not I suppose all smokers will take over beer gardens and us non smokers will not be able to have a meal on a summers day without the accompanying smoke.

Don't know about the UK, but here the beer gardens are open-air so not covered - although a pub can ban smoking there at its own discretion.

 

[London Calling]

I mentioned gardens, as ar as I am aware, they are a free for all.

As they are not a public enclosed space.

 

[TSB]

As a smoker, well 6-day ex-smoker, i say no it's not.

If people wanna kill themselves smoking, they can do it at home!

Also they may well smoke less because of the ban.