[News] Is the NHS Fit For Purpose

[beorhthelm]

Seconded.

The Tories have wanted to privatise the NHS for years because they are ‘the Party of low taxation’ - they have done their best to undermine NHS services by depriving them of a sustainable level of funding IMO - so the electorate then say, ‘hey, let’s fix the NHS by privatising it’ when in fact all it needs is appropriate funding for the level of care it is expected to provide, a reduction of unnecessary wastage and just better a balance between administration and clinical care recourses. That doesn’t require a massive overhaul or privatisation enterprise, that requires a government that will actually listen to doctors and nurses when they are told where it is struggling and what is needed.

The one area that I do think the NHS is very much broken though is in bed provision - I blame that on too many people using A&E because they can’t get an appointment with their GP. I also blame it on local authority Social Service care that is too slow to provide discharge care packages/and or nursing home care for in-patients. In the community, Primary Care for dentistry, mental health services and GP services is suffering from withdrawal of funding and more recently, a rapid expansion of housing development without the necessary Primary Healthcare infrastructure . It’s a crap shoot which part of the Country you live in whether Primary Care is meeting the needs of residents and in many areas it is not..

so we fight tooth and nail to keep a system poor bed provision, under resources GPs putting pressure on A&E, doesnt have adequate social care or mental care, doesnt cover denistry.

or, maybe, we need to change some of those things. starting with GPs monopoly on entry to health services, and providing alternatives to hosptial so convalescence some social care can be handled away from them.

 

[Chicken Run]

This country is a goldfish pond that is year on year seeing more goldfish put into it but no one is making the pond bigger, and to make matters worse many of the maturing fish are living longer and not making way as quickly as they were 50 years ago

However ….

Birthrate in UK falls to record low as campaigners say ‘procreation a luxury’

Total fertility was 1.49 children per woman in 2022 amid rising housing and childcare costs

www.theguardian.com

So i’m assuming that in 20 years we might not need so many new homes built ?

 

[Guinness Boy]

This country is a goldfish pond that is year on year seeing more goldfish put into it but no one is making the pond bigger, and to make matters worse many of the maturing fish are living longer and not making way as quickly as they were 50 years ago

A lot of the 'goldfish' are here to work for the NHS because our own doctors are emigrating to Australia and Canada thanks to our awful rates of pay, low morale and the replacing of GPs with PAs.

 

[Bry Nylon]

This country is a goldfish pond that is year on year seeing more goldfish put into it but no one is making the pond bigger, and to make matters worse many of the maturing fish are living longer and not making way as quickly as they were 50 years ago

Plus loads of the fish are fatties and alkies who don't do enough swimming.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A lot of the 'goldfish' are here to work for the NHS because our own doctors are emigrating to Australia and Canada thanks to our awful rates of pay, low morale and the replacing of GPs with PAs.

This. I know medics who have done this, Discussed passim

 

[Chicken Run]

A lot of the 'goldfish' are here to work for the NHS because our own doctors are emigrating to Australia and Canada thanks to our awful rates of pay, low morale and the replacing of GPs with PAs.

Net migration figure for last year ??

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

so we fight tooth and nail to keep a system poor bed provision, under resources GPs putting pressure on A&E, doesnt have adequate social care or mental care, doesnt cover denistry.

or, maybe, we need to change some of those things. starting with GPs monopoly on entry to health services, and providing alternatives to hosptial so convalescence some social care can be handled away from them.

More words needed for coherence. Please.

 

[Chicken Run]

Plus loads of the fish are fatties and alkies who don't do enough swimming.

I’m going to assume more over 40s than say 1970 are needing some sort of serious and costly medical treatment and support?

 

[Zeberdi]

so we fight tooth and nail to keep a system poor bed provision, under resources GPs putting pressure on A&E, doesnt have adequate social care or mental care, doesnt cover denistry.

or, maybe, we need to change some of those things. starting with GPs monopoly on entry to health services, and providing alternatives to hosptial so convalescence some social care can be handled away from them.

Is that what I said? Strange interpretation of my post.

I’m pretty sure I said the NHS was broken in those areas and needed more funding, better balance of admin v clinical care and that it’s failures in local authority funded Social Care that’s causing much of the crisis in bed provision.

Perhaps read my post again and try not to re-polarise what I said into an argument to maintain the status quo.

EDIT Just to clarify the above - it was pretty obvious to all but the seriously myopic that I was agreeing to us fighting to save the NHS not agreeing we should fight “tooth and nail “ to save it’s flaws - @Tom Hark Preston Park wasn’t saying the system was perfect - you can improve the system without throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Net migration figure for last year ??

I'm not saying net migration hasn't gone up, it's one of the litany of failures of a hard Brexit.

I'm saying there's an irony in many of them being needed to replace highly skilled professionals who are leaving.

 

[beorhthelm]

Is that what I said? Strange interpretation of my post.

I’m pretty sure I said the NHS was broken in those areas and needed more funding, better balance of admin v clinical care and that it’s failures in local authority funded Social Care that’s causing much of the crisis in bed provision.

Perhaps read my post again and try not to re-polarise what I said into an argument to maintain the status quo.

exactly. though you started by "seconding" a post saying we need to fight tooth and nail for what we have. dont you see? we say the system needs to be kept, then list all the things that are flawed.

take that list of flaws and start to look for changes. stop talking about what is pubilc or private, what we think some politicans want to do, focus on what we want the system to do first.

 

[Chicken Run]

I'm not saying net migration hasn't gone up, it's one of the litany of failures of a hard Brexit.

I'm saying there's an irony in many of them being needed to replace highly skilled professionals who are leaving.

I don’t have the appetite for a back and forth with you on this, but last years recorded net migration figure was north of 600,000, how many people are there within the whole of the NHS with an overseas nationality……..

How many NHS staff are foreign nationals?​

Most NHS staff in England are British, but around 19% are not. Around 265,000 out of 1.5 million staff reported a non-British nationality in June 2023, up from 220,000 a year earlier This amounts to nearly one in five of NHS staff with a known nationality.

“Between them, these staff hold over 200 different nationalities. 122,000 are Asian nationals (8.6%), while Over 70,000 are EU nationals (5.2%).

You can’t tell me all those 265k rocked up last year?

 

[Guinness Boy]

I don’t have the appetite for a back and forth with you on this, but last years recorded net migration figure was north of 600,000, how many people are there within the whole of the NHS with an overseas nationality……..

How many NHS staff are foreign nationals?​

Most NHS staff in England are British, but around 19% are not. Around 265,000 out of 1.5 million staff reported a non-British nationality in June 2023, up from 220,000 a year earlier This amounts to nearly one in five of NHS staff with a known nationality.

“Between them, these staff hold over 200 different nationalities. 122,000 are Asian nationals (8.6%), while Over 70,000 are EU nationals (5.2%).

You can’t tell me all those 265k rocked up last year?

They will have grown proportionally.

Before Brexit 'got done' a lot of foreign nationals here were transient. Come over under freedom of movement, work in agriculture, hospitality or the trades for a while, send money home and go back. Now legal net migration is led by students and professionals with a minimum salary, who will include health professionals and people studying to become doctors. And the people with the minimum salary qualification won't be leaving any time soon, unlike, say, seasonal Bulgarian fruit pickers.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They will have grown proportionally.

Before Brexit 'got done' a lot of foreign nationals here were transient. Come over under freedom of movement, work in agriculture, hospitality or the trades for a while, send money home and go back. Now legal net migration is led by students and professionals with a minimum salary, who will include health professionals and people studying to become doctors. And the people with the minimum salary qualification won't be leaving any time soon, unlike, say, seasonal Bulgarian fruit pickers.

Precisely.

Making it harder to come here to work has paradoxically made it more likely that those who do come here stay here, while at the same time aggravating staff shortages in the NHS and other sectors.

Brexit was a stupid idea with consequences worse than the so-called scaremongering predicted. Instead of a flexible workforce with fluid recruitment we have an arthritic ineffective clusterfuck. Who knew? I knew

 

[Peteinblack]

Precisely.

Making it harder to come here to work has paradoxically made it more likely that those who do come here stay here, while at the same time aggravating staff shortages in the NHS and other sectors.

Brexit was a stupid idea with consequences worse than the so-called scaremongering predicted. Instead of a flexible workforce with fluid recruitment we have an arthritic ineffective clusterfuck. Who knew? I knew

Yeah. but Brexitters had "had enough of experts", and preferred to be persuaded by those renowned paragons of truth, and passionate defenders of working-class interests, Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Smugg

 

[The Clamp]

so we fight tooth and nail to keep a system poor bed provision, under resources GPs putting pressure on A&E, doesnt have adequate social care or mental care, doesnt cover denistry.

or, maybe, we need to change some of those things. starting with GPs monopoly on entry to health services, and providing alternatives to hosptial so convalescence some social care can be handled away from them.

Do they still have the cottage hospitals? Where people can go and convalesce rather than taking up up a bed in a hospital ward?

Quite nice those places.

Probably not though. Likely send them home and have a carer come round for 90 seconds a day.

 

[drew]

Me, even as a bit of a pinko I don't thin it's fit for purpose. It's designed for 70 years ago and seems to be stuffed full of people covering for themselves at the top level, with allegations of bullying and incompetence rife.

The US is worse though.

A good midway would be a system similar to The Netherlands or France which both require medical insurance as mandatory, but this is normally covered by an employer and cannot just be cancelled by the insurer. Care is free at the point of need with insurers covering most bills.

There would need to be a think about how to treat the homeless and digitally disenfranchised but the schemes tend to work in both countries.

As for getting rid of administrators that isn't a panacea, because you don't want Drs and Nurses spending all day filling in forms and arranging admin, you want them treating people. But I reckon there's definitely overspending on inefficiencies and a full audit should be done on expenses polices and how much is being spent on diversity and inclusion.

I would also make it illegal for Physician Associates to take GP appointments.

Why does the increase in population automatically make it the wrong model? That's a bizarre suggestion. What it does highlight is the fact funding has not kept pace with population increase nor with the increased costs involved with more technology and more complex procedures. Unfortunately, for 18 years under the Thatcher era it was starved of funding and then again over the last 14 years. You've had as one health secretary someone who has written a book about privatising the NHS. How is he going to be objective about funding?

 

[The Clamp]

Separately today I have heard one analyst saying that for its size and the amount of moving parts, the NHS is incredibly well run.

Another analyst reckons it’s down the toilet.

When independent advisors cannot agree what the issues are, we are frankly, f***ed.

 

[BLOCK F]

As a Tory I am quite encouraged by what Wes Streeting says he plans for the NHS. Assuming Labour win the election, let's see what he can do.

I wish him well, but he has a hell of a task on his hands. If he really wants to do what he says he does, then I expect his dark hair to turn grey, then white fairly rapidly!

 

[BLOCK F]

Why does the increase in population automatically make it the wrong model? That's a bizarre suggestion. What it does highlight is the fact funding has not kept pace with population increase nor with the increased costs involved with more technology and more complex procedures. Unfortunately, for 18 years under the Thatcher era it was starved of funding and then again over the last 14 years. You've had as one health secretary someone who has written a book about privatising the NHS. How is he going to be objective about funding?

Do you honestly think it is all about funding and the ‘evil’ Tory governments of past and present, or do you think that sensible politicians of all political persuasions, including Starmer and Streeting may have a point in believing that reforms are long overdue and the ‘worshipping at the shrine’ of the NHS is, and has been, a hindrance to effecting change?