[News] Is the NHS Fit For Purpose

[Guinness Boy]

Simple question. Given the news about Ken on another thread, do NSC believe the NHS in its current form is fit for purpose?

[Misc] - Ken Valder

Quite a distressing read about Ken Valder in The Guardian today. There does seem to be a lot of issues with the University Hospitals Sussex NHS Trust. https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jun/17/sussex-nhs-trust-apologises-cancer-treatment-delays-death-ken-valder

www.northstandchat.com

 

[Guinness Boy]

Me, even as a bit of a pinko I don't thin it's fit for purpose. It's designed for 70 years ago and seems to be stuffed full of people covering for themselves at the top level, with allegations of bullying and incompetence rife.

The US is worse though.

A good midway would be a system similar to The Netherlands or France which both require medical insurance as mandatory, but this is normally covered by an employer and cannot just be cancelled by the insurer. Care is free at the point of need with insurers covering most bills.

There would need to be a think about how to treat the homeless and digitally disenfranchised but the schemes tend to work in both countries.

As for getting rid of administrators that isn't a panacea, because you don't want Drs and Nurses spending all day filling in forms and arranging admin, you want them treating people. But I reckon there's definitely overspending on inefficiencies and a full audit should be done on expenses polices and how much is being spent on diversity and inclusion.

I would also make it illegal for Physician Associates to take GP appointments.

 

[Commander]

Me, even as a bit of a pinko I don't. It's designed for 70 years ago and seems to be stuffed full of people covering for themselves at the top level, with allegations of bullying and incompetence rife.

The US is worse though.

A good midway would be a system similar to The Netherlands or France which both require medical insurance as mandatory, but this is normally covered by an employer and cannot just be cancelled by the insurer. Care is free at the point of need with insurers covering most bills.

There would need to be a think about how to treat the homeless and digitally disenfranchised but the schemes tend to work in both countries.

As for getting rid of administrators that isn't a panacea, because you don't want Drs and Nurses spending all day filling in forms and arranging admin, you want them treating people. But I reckon there's definitely overspending on inefficiencies and a full audit should be done on expenses polices and how much is being spent on diversity and inclusion.

I would also make it illegal for Physician Associates to take GP appointments.

Completely agree. We have a completely outdated model that isn't used anywhere else on the planet. It's ridiculous.

It's taboo to say it, but part of the problem is a lot of the people who work in it! When you pay minimum wage you get minimum wage quality. The administration side of it is so appalling bad, with constant mistakes costing it millions and millions of pounds. If they paid people better then you'd generally get much better people, which would minimise the mistakes and surely minimise the money lost- paying people more and hiring better people would actually save it money. But it's so departmentalised that they don't seem to be able to look at the bigger picture.

Good luck to any politician suggesting anything other than a completely free service though, especially if they are a Tory. "YOU WANT TO PRIVATISE THE WHOLE NHS AND HAVE PEOPLE DIE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD MEDICATION!!!??"

 

[LamieRobertson]

My experience ….on the whole lovely people trying to work within crap systems

 

[The Clamp]

No.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I think the problems are as much cultural as they are structural. THE UK public sector has an obsession with buying American software. I would argue that in many cases it would be more appropriate to look at European solutions. English language support is trivial in most cases.

This is particularly acute in hospitals, where core systems are designed to meet the requirements of Healthcare insurers. What is needed is more systems that focus on patient pathways. There are blockers in A&E triage, managing admisssions and beds in specilaist wards and managing the discharge process especially the interfaces to social care and follow up services.

The other area for concern is that whilst the vast majority of staff are undoubtedly hardworking and caring, too many are very poor at using technology. I am sure that many have had bad experiences using poorly implemented systems, but as a country I think we are being held back now by huge swathes of people who are competent with social media and frightened of the technology in their workplace.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

It is clearly not fit for purpose.

‘Staggering’ paper use revealed as NHS told electronic records safer

One NHS trust estimated it generates 25 million pages of A4 each year

www.independent.co.uk

Just taking one example, paper use.... how is this much paper still being used in 2024? What a complete waste of money.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Completely agree. We have a completely outdated model that isn't used anywhere else on the planet. It's ridiculous.

It's taboo to say it, but part of the problem is a lot of the people who work in it! When you pay minimum wage you get minimum wage quality. The administration side of it is so appalling bad, with constant mistakes costing it millions and millions of pounds. If they paid people better then you'd generally get much better people, which would minimise the mistakes and surely minimise the money lost- paying people more and hiring better people would actually save it money. But it's so departmentalised that they don't seem to be able to look at the bigger picture.

Good luck to any politician suggesting anything other than a completely free service though, especially if they are a Tory. "YOU WANT TO PRIVATISE THE WHOLE NHS AND HAVE PEOPLE DIE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD MEDICATION!!!??"

The thing is, it is worse in Labour led Wales and SNP led Scotland.

We need an independent system away from and political input.

 

[Somethingdean]

A hybrid mix of public and private would be good but I bet you we would balls it up and end up like America within 2 decades.

 

[happypig]

A good midway would be a system similar to The Netherlands or France which both require medical insurance as mandatory, but this is normally covered by an employer and cannot just be cancelled by the insurer. Care is free at the point of need with insurers covering most bills.

That’s retired and unemployed people f***ed then.

 

[Ⓩ-Ⓐ-Ⓜ-Ⓞ-Ⓡ-Ⓐ]

It's been useless whenever my and the family have needed it. These days we just do all of our regular health / dental stuff when we're in Greece and only use the UK for emergencies (for which it's generally been useless).

 

[Guinness Boy]

That’s retired and unemployed people f***ed then.

No, it isn't.

My family retired to France and were covered affordably, despite never having worked there. And in The Netherlands insurers aren't allowed to lapse the mandatory policy that pays most bills even if someone's in prison. They make their money from selling add ons to the rich, mostly dental and vision add ons which people also pay for here (but just the same, basic dental is covered for a small fee).

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

That’s retired and unemployed people f***ed then.

Do they just die in Germany?

This nonsense is why it wont change.

 

[rogersix]

The maintenance contracts will also need a look at as the suppliers have a closed shop, kick backs?....... maybe

 

[Eeyore]

Should be a 'Don't Know' option. My experience has been good but I know others have found issues.

 

[Happy Exile]

A good midway would be a system similar to The Netherlands or France which both require medical insurance as mandatory, but this is normally covered by an employer and cannot just be cancelled by the insurer. Care is free at the point of need with insurers covering most bills.

This is something I've heard suggested by quite a few people, including some who work in the NHS, and seems to make a lot of sense.

 

[el punal]

My experience ….on the whole lovely people trying to work within crap systems

Absolutely. I have nothing but praise for all the staff involved in the NHS.

 

[LamieRobertson]

The thing is, it is worse in Labour led Wales and SNP led Scotland.

We need an independent system away from and political input.

Ive often thought (probably in an illogical way) that we should take education ..health ..the economy away from politicians and leave them with …erm not a lot

 

[ROSM]

The thing is, it is worse in Labour led Wales and SNP led Scotland.

We need an independent system away from and political input.

This isn't comparing apples with apples. The nhs in Wales for example has a number of regional specific challenges that England doesn't have in the same proportions (industrial injuries impacting long term health, genetic issues etc).

 

[Eeyore]

All of us want the NHS to continue. That is in no doubt.

The problem, the elephant that occupies the whole room, is that despite just about every government increasing taxpayer funding it struggles. The population is much larger than a few decades back and, the biggest challenge, people are living a lot longer. Then there is the advances in medicine.

The question surrounds what the function of the NHS should be and what we as a society should be doing ourselves. It's a difficult issue to address as governments want votes.

So for me the question is not the NHS model, that is sacred. The question is what its services are.