Is the lack of available GP's to blame for NHS crisis?

[BLOCK F]

Of course the difficulty in sometimes getting a G.P.'s appointment affects the numbers of people turning up at A&E. I do believe that surveys have been done on those attending and they have shown that up to 35% of bods shouldn't be there and should have been seen by their G.P.'s. When questioned, the response is I couldn't get an appointment. Yes, some people are time wasters, hypochondriacs or just plain thick, but many attending are elderly or concerned about young children and because they may not have been ill at the time appointments have to be made with their GP...............usually about 8.30 am, they are unable to be seen on the day. Hence the trip to A&E.I don't know about others on this board, but sitting in A&E for a few hours if you don't need to, isn't my idea of fun and not something I would choose to do!
Out of hours care is a huge problem and 111 is certainly not the answer.It can be a nightmare, as I have experienced with my late mother who had Alzheimers and at the time was suffering from pneumonia.My father ,then 98 and a retired GP was doing his best to look after her, but without going into detail, the experience with 111 was a disgrace in this day and age.
Primary medical care today needs radical changes as does social care of the elderly. It can't be that complicated, but it does need all interested parties to put aside their own prejudices and work TOGETHER towards a solution.

 

[AWAYDAY]

It's all going to be sorted by the £350 million we get back when we leave the EU! Plus all the foreign medical staff will have to move over so that all the over qualified British Dr.s and nurses that are on the dole can have their jobs back.

This crisis has absolutely nothing to do with funding and the independent bodies, medically professionals and charities are just spreading fake news to promote their own evil agendas. Wake up people!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The NHS crisis (if indeed there really is one) is caused by there being far too many fecking people in this country. Same reason for our roads being overcrowded. Same reason for the apparent housing crisis.

This country is FULL and has been for a number of years. We do not have, nor do we want the infrastructure for any more people.

Nonsense. I live in a small town whose population has barely changed in 20 years. It is at least 95% white British. When I first moved here it took about 3 minutes to drive through town to get on to the A2. Now the roads are always clogged. Why? because peope are richer, and instead of making infrequent journeys to the shops, often by foot, half the twon drives to one of the two big supermarkets every day. A place is always 'full' in as much as people and their activities expand to fill the space available. This has always been true of roads and has nothing to do with actual population.

When I moved here (and up till fairly recently - last 2-3 years) if I wanted to see a doctor I phoned and got an appointment on the day. Now, I have to wait nearly two minutes, listening to the various options (and admonitions about what constitutes an 'emergency') before prssing the number to speak to a receptipnist. I then have a further wait, and am then crossexamined in a way I regard as inappropriate. These days the first ordinary appointment is in several days time. I recently made the mistake of not saying I had two ailments to be dealt with. The doctor threw a strop and told me I should have made a 'double' appointment. Furthermore, rather than dealing with a problem, the GP starts at the 'entry level' first, asking me how much I want to do something about the problem, then staging the intervention in the order of expense. Not so long ago I took nearly 20 days off work with a foot problem, going through a process of physiotherapy (I think the problem is actually your back . . . .(later) . . . acually I think its your knee), X ray (useless), then MRI scan, each time my having to arrange to come in and see the GP to get the results and plan the next step. In the end I had a steroid injection (which was delivered by a nurse prectitioner type, not a GP) and I had to drive to effing Folkestone for the pleasure. Pain gone the next day, never to return. My surgery is a GP practice so I never see he same person twce.

This has **** all to do with the UK being full. It is to do with flabby matrix management, a health service run by people who don't believe in it, and who may even prefer to see it destroyed. Across thye UK we have invented burgeoning management, with the managers inventing new types of management (because it makes it more likely their own job safety will be secure). We hve completely invented a health and safety culture in the last 25 years, on a completely ad hoc and almost cancerous basis, with the papererwork necessary to do anything (I am in research) now so onerous that the only way to get on is to pay someone else to do it all for you, or just make it all up.

No, we in the UK are ****ed because of our own stupidity, laziness, self-delusion and sense of entitlement. Blaming immigration is laughable.

 

[goldstone]

It was certainly not very full up on Dartmoor today, more ponies than people, or have I not grasped the read between the lines jist of your post.

Surprisingly I was not referring to Dartmoor. Have you tried driving on the M25 recently? Or through the Dartford Tunnel? Or driving in London? Or even the section of the M25 between Gatwick and the M25? We're full.

 

[alfredmizen]

I've not always been self-employed though. When I was employed I was always allowed time off for doctors and dentists. Is the issue with making up lost hours, losing money, or employers not allowing staff to see doctors during company hours?

I don't know, I'm self employed !

 

[goldstone]

Isn't more to do with lack of investment?

That's true, but how much more investment? And whose money? As a taxpayer I do not want my money invested in infrastructure that is purely there to enable further immigration and further growth in the population.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I remember my dad and my nan being stuck on trolleys for hours in A&E, and that was under a Labour government. I think they have a right fing nerve telling everyone the NHS is failing after the mess they made of things.

If we want more Doctors, Nurses, Hospitals then reality is we all have to pay a bit more, and also start training our own Doctors and Nurses, give them free education on the understanding they commit to the NHS for 10-15 years.

or make the job attractive enough so people first train, and then stay?

 

[goldstone]

This makes no sense whatsoever, as you're saying that this country's infrastructure can't cope because it doesn't have the infrastructure.

My apologies if I confused you. This country maybe has the infrastructure for the population as it was about ten years ago. It needs more to catch up with where we are now, but absolutely not more in order to encourage further population growth. Enough is enough.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

My apologies if I confused you. This country maybe has the infrastructure for the population as it was about ten years ago. It needs more to catch up with where we are now, but absolutely not more in order to encourage further population growth. Enough is enough.

When reading your posts these words came to my mind as well.

 

[yxee]

I'm a little bit tired of people pinning everything on immigrants.

I don't think he mentioned immigrants. The country is full, whomever you choose to blame. Personally I also blame people having ten kids.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Nonsense. I live in a small town whose population has barely changed in 20 years. It is at least 95% white British. When I first moved here it took about 3 minutes to drive through town to get on to the A2. Now the roads are always clogged. Why? because peope are richer, and instead of making infrequent journeys to the shops, often by foot, half the twon drives to one of the two big supermarkets every day. A place is always 'full' in as much as people and their activities expand to fill the space available. This has always been true of roads and has nothing to do with actual population.

When I moved here (and up till fairly recently - last 2-3 years) if I wanted to see a doctor I phoned and got an appointment on the day. Now, I have to wait nearly two minutes, listening to the various options (and admonitions about what constitutes an 'emergency') before prssing the number to speak to a receptipnist. I then have a further wait, and am then crossexamined in a way I regard as inappropriate. These days the first ordinary appointment is in several days time. I recently made the mistake of not saying I had two ailments to be dealt with. The doctor threw a strop and told me I should have made a 'double' appointment. Furthermore, rather than dealing with a problem, the GP starts at the 'entry level' first, asking me how much I want to do something about the problem, then staging the intervention in the order of expense. Not so long ago I took nearly 20 days off work with a foot problem, going through a process of physiotherapy (I think the problem is actually your back . . . .(later) . . . acually I think its your knee), X ray (useless), then MRI scan, each time my having to arrange to come in and see the GP to get the results and plan the next step. In the end I had a steroid injection (which was delivered by a nurse prectitioner type, not a GP) and I had to drive to effing Folkestone for the pleasure. Pain gone the next day, never to return. My surgery is a GP practice so I never see he same person twce.

This has **** all to do with the UK being full. It is to do with flabby matrix management, a health service run by people who don't believe in it, and who may even prefer to see it destroyed. Across thye UK we have invented burgeoning management, with the managers inventing new types of management (because it makes it more likely their own job safety will be secure). We hve completely invented a health and safety culture in the last 25 years, on a completely ad hoc and almost cancerous basis, with the papererwork necessary to do anything (I am in research) now so onerous that the only way to get on is to pay someone else to do it all for you, or just make it all up.

No, we in the UK are ****ed because of our own stupidity, laziness, self-delusion and sense of entitlement. Blaming immigration is laughable.

One of the best posts ever on NSC

 

[NooBHA]

The NHS crisis (if indeed there really is one) is caused by there being far too many fecking people in this country. Same reason for our roads being overcrowded. Same reason for the apparent housing crisis.

This country is FULL and has been for a number of years. We do not have, nor do we want the infrastructure for any more people.

Absolute nonsense. About 35% of the care givers on the NHS are actually immigrants trained overseas which we recruit from overseas. The health crisis is not as bad as the press and NHS themselves would have us believe.

What has risen is our expectancy of the NHS. People go to Doctors or A & E with cut fingers or coughs and sneezes. Stuff when I was younger my mother would have put an Elastoplast on it or dispense a cough mixture. Our tolerance to illness has dropped. We seek a quick fix of anti - biotics. Take those people out of the equation and our Health Service could begin to concentrate the real needy people.

Then you have all these injury lawyers encouraging people to take on an American Culture of suing the Health Service which is now costing billions every year. There is no one item which is causing the Health service to perform less efficiently so to try and blame it squarely at the door or migrants is just wrong. I don't say that that is not a contributing factor, it actually is but by no means is it the sole factor.

 

[warmleyseagull]

The reasons are various and complex, some of which are included in here. I would adduce three reasons:

1. Ironically, the very success of medical science. Many fewer people don't conveniently die of a heart attack in 60s; cancer is increasingly a chronic ailment rather than a death sentence. It is an oft stated illusion that this saves NHS money; the contrary is actually true as it results in a startlingly rapid growth in dementia, which is far more costly to treat as patients get stuck in hospital while under funded local authorities don't find them a place in care homes;

2. Too many people seeking medical advice for ailments. It is not just A&E (though my A&E registrar son reckons about a third of visitors shouldn't be there) but also anxious parents rushing their charges to GPs with the slightest sniffle;

3. The big unsaid. We are not taking enough collective responsibility for health. We expect everything yet do too little to help ourselves and family by not smoking, eating crap, drinking too much, and taking too little exercise. If this is sanctimonious, so be it. Governments are too weak to say it, but it doesn't change the truth.

 

[drew]

That's true, but how much more investment? And whose money? As a taxpayer I do not want my money invested in infrastructure that is purely there to enable further immigration and further growth in the population.

So, you believe in letting the NHS fail because that would stop Johnny Foreigner coming here and messing up your life!!!

 

[biddles911]

As you say there is enough GP'S around, it's whether they want to work longer hours.
My local surgery has three days in the week where it's open till eight and has a triage service, where a dedicated doc can call you back at home within one hour.
Also as you have said it's difficult to get an appointment when you want one, but I have learnt, when they ask is it urgent, you say yes and miraculously they find an opening.

I think there is an issue with GP hours.

Virtually all the GPs in our local surgery are part time these days and I suspect that's partly because the last Labour government gave them such a big pay hike that many GPs thought they'd prefer part time working to improve their work-life balance.

Don't particularly blame them for that but it's not helping the situation in NHS.

It would also be helpful if more people took some responsibility for their health by eating sensibly and exercising. Easier said than done, I appreciate, but personally I'd introduce charges for using the NHS. Unless we can start managing demand better we'll just keep lobbing more and more billions into a bottomless pit....


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[AmexRuislip]

It would also be helpful if more people took some responsibility for their health by eating sensibly and exercising. Easier said than done, I appreciate,

Exactly this

but personally I'd introduce charges for using the NHS

Charge people for not turning up for their appointments.

 

[sir albion]

The NHS crisis (if indeed there really is one) is caused by there being far too many fecking people in this country. Same reason for our roads being overcrowded. Same reason for the apparent housing crisis.

This country is FULL and has been for a number of years. We do not have, nor do we want the infrastructure for any more people.

Yep that's the issue and can only get worse sadly....You can create all the jobs in the world and bring in all the migrants you want,but the infrastructure will never improve because the money doesn't get to where it should.

The money will go to numerous company's and the greed of the pharmaceutical company's is never higher...
The roads are bloody terrible and this wasn't the case 10 or so years ago and the housing crisis is just bloody insane and no surprise with social housing not being built in enough numbers as it's all about small plots with expensive homes on it.

Tell what's pissing me off is the dentist...
I'm private and have to wait a month to see the hygienist and 2/3 weeks for a basic appointment....it's getting ridiculous

 

[Guy Fawkes]

There are so may contributory factors to a lot of the problems our public services and the NHS suffer from

Our national debt grows by £5,170 per second and stands at approximately £1,804,935,000 at the time of this post. when it first hit £1,000,000,000 this was posted and fairly relevant to the topic

UK National Debt Surpassed £1 Trillion

Mainstream media headlines today are focused on Britain's record national debt, which just surpassed £1 trillion, a figure that can only exponentially increase unless the entire mechanism of Government finance is overhauled. The truth however is much worse, factoring in all liabilities including state and public sector pensions, the real national debt is closer to £4.8 trillion, some £78,000 for every person in the UK.

At the moment, 8% of all tax revenue collected goes on just servicing this national debt, that's before we start to think about how we spend money on our services.

It's very easy to just say we will increase public spending or raise taxes to help fund these services, but it won't tackle this underlying problem and the issue will still cause problems for generations to come (regardless of who is in power)

The more you increase tax, the less individuals have to spend (making them fall nearer to the poverty line) and this can also affect the economy because of less spending by the population, and this could lead to reduced business tax revenues or force people out of work as companies fail or lay of staff to reduce costs. It also could mean wages don't grow as companies cant afford to pay more as margins are tight (possibly leading on more reliance on the state by the lower paid to survive)

It's a fine balancing act and one that Governments can aid by making sure that money is used in a way to give maximum value / efficiency to the taxpayer, but this is not always the culture we have in our services (budgets have to be spent or they get a smaller budget the following year so there is no real incentive to save money by careful purchasing, etc, and not to use up any remaining budget by spending it in the last couple of months of the financial year on things that aren't really needed just for the sake of using it) or from the public (for example, if the Police are facing budget constraints / cuts, the last thing they need is to spend some of their budget tacking social unrest and protests about cuts) but also there is a reluctance to accept change (strikes, etc)

The balance between public and private business should be widened (30% public, 70% private or possibly even wider like 20% / 80%) so that we have an economy built on private business which pays staff from their own turnover and they pay tax into the Government coffers and not have an economy that is not as reliant on the public sector for employment (the money to run and pay for staff comes from the Government and from taxes and public borrowing). The way to achieve this isn't to shrink the public sector, (but may be needed to start with to cut tax burdens on the private sector) but to grow the private sector and make sure it is not strangled by taxation and bureaucracy. The extra tax revenue from the private sector is what then helps to fund our efficiently run public sector (and any excess used to reduce our national debt) But there needs to be an end of this culture that private is bad and based around greed and exploiting the workers and public is good and they are all saints that can do no wrong

 

[sir albion]

Too many whimps about who are prepared to spend a few hours in A&E wanting a free plaster for a paper cut.
We need stiffer backbones and more people like the Black Knight who may lose an arm or two but treat it as just a flesh wound and don't go running to A&E.
Unless you've had a personal invite from the grim reaper stay away and cure thyself.

Also when we was kids and fell over....you know the days when kids climbed trees etc etc and had gashes in their heads when falling etc.These days a small gash on the knee or head and parents rush to hospital because like you say the pathetic panicking sets in.

 

[Sussexscots]

Nonsense. I live in a small town whose population has barely changed in 20 years. It is at least 95% white British. When I first moved here it took about 3 minutes to drive through town to get on to the A2. Now the roads are always clogged. Why? because peope are richer, and instead of making infrequent journeys to the shops, often by foot, half the twon drives to one of the two big supermarkets every day. A place is always 'full' in as much as people and their activities expand to fill the space available. This has always been true of roads and has nothing to do with actual population.

When I moved here (and up till fairly recently - last 2-3 years) if I wanted to see a doctor I phoned and got an appointment on the day. Now, I have to wait nearly two minutes, listening to the various options (and admonitions about what constitutes an 'emergency') before prssing the number to speak to a receptipnist. I then have a further wait, and am then crossexamined in a way I regard as inappropriate. These days the first ordinary appointment is in several days time. I recently made the mistake of not saying I had two ailments to be dealt with. The doctor threw a strop and told me I should have made a 'double' appointment. Furthermore, rather than dealing with a problem, the GP starts at the 'entry level' first, asking me how much I want to do something about the problem, then staging the intervention in the order of expense. Not so long ago I took nearly 20 days off work with a foot problem, going through a process of physiotherapy (I think the problem is actually your back . . . .(later) . . . acually I think its your knee), X ray (useless), then MRI scan, each time my having to arrange to come in and see the GP to get the results and plan the next step. In the end I had a steroid injection (which was delivered by a nurse prectitioner type, not a GP) and I had to drive to effing Folkestone for the pleasure. Pain gone the next day, never to return. My surgery is a GP practice so I never see he same person twce.

This has **** all to do with the UK being full. It is to do with flabby matrix management, a health service run by people who don't believe in it, and who may even prefer to see it destroyed. Across thye UK we have invented burgeoning management, with the managers inventing new types of management (because it makes it more likely their own job safety will be secure). We hve completely invented a health and safety culture in the last 25 years, on a completely ad hoc and almost cancerous basis, with the papererwork necessary to do anything (I am in research) now so onerous that the only way to get on is to pay someone else to do it all for you, or just make it all up.

No, we in the UK are ****ed because of our own stupidity, laziness, self-delusion and sense of entitlement. Blaming immigration is laughable.

Your third paragraph covers almost every circumstance where one is required to interface with an arm of state these days. Nobody wants to own anything until a mountain of paperwork is first completed, the length and complexity of it seemingly designed to put off people from having anything to do with it in the first place. That and a byzantine structure of administration.

When I applied for Attendance Allowance for my wife's elderly aunt, the form was about 50 pages long!

Took my Grandson to a specialist about his breathing last year. He needs an operation to clear his sinuses says the quack. Received appt details, took him to the hospital....Surgeon meets us. 'your grandson has been booked in for operation x'. 'Aye'. 'Well he needs operation Y so we can't go ahead today'. FFS! If there's no capacity in the NHS, don't waste my time and yours by not knowing what operation he's supposed to be getting.