Baker lite
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What a whopper [emoji1303][emoji23]
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Is no statue safe?
- Thread starter BN9 BHA
- Start date
What a whopper [emoji1303][emoji23]
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
That's not racist, he's just a selfish lover!
Pierre the Painter
New member
- May 20, 2020
- 311
I see Sadiq Khan announced this morning an urgent review into statues and monuments in London with a view to taking a great number down with racist connotations.
I expect the likes of Churchill, the Duke of Wellington, Nelsons Column will be in grave danger.
I expect the likes of Churchill, the Duke of Wellington, Nelsons Column will be in grave danger.
Is it PotG?
Thrifty non-licker
Our Max will be OK
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 72,311
Big danger is you knee-jerk to ripping down statues in line with what's Trending On Twitter. Which is no valid basis at all IMHO. Stick the statues in a museum to educate the sons and daughters of the twitterati and all post-twitter generations going forward
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
This all just highlights the fact that people are quite complicated in their views and behaviours. I doubt this chap in Bristol gave much thought about the people he was transporting, I doubt he even met or saw the majority of them - to him they were just another cargo, yet clearly he did have a concern for the people of Bristol as can be noted by his philanthropy.
He probably wasn't maniacally laughing as his ships plied the slave trade routes.
He probably wasn't maniacally laughing as his ships plied the slave trade routes.
I support the BLM protests.
I condemned the statue malarkey and suggested those involved (and the flag burner) be prosecuted.
I don't need a lesson on what Churchill did.
More tiresome whatboutery, with added speculation on what it will mean, later, if Churchill's statue is defaced, from yourself, like you actually want it to happen so you can spout off again
I knew the actual ‘Mary From The Dairy’.
Very good post. Yes, it is a sliding scale. The only item for debate is where on the scale 'unacceptable' starts. And this is itself changing with the passing of time.
Part of me is very much against revisionism. Ghandi and Churchill are beyond reproach to me, but if I am honest this is because the good they did outweighs the bad, rather than any 'it was different then' consideration. I think the latter is part of it, but not the main issue.
Your 'laughing maniacally' comment is very apt. We all know that Hitler's main objective was genocide based on racism, justified by the notion this would make life better for Germans. One can imagine him dwelling on the final solution and taking great satisfaction at the death, and the recycling of possessions. And even body fat. That's a far cry from the matter-of-fact racial stereotyping the likes of Churchill and Ghandi would have taken on board with their mother's milk.
That said it was their choice to say or do what they did and, given the originality of thought and deed they manifested elsewhere in their lives, their blindspots must be noted as racist. Not racist enough to warrant removal of their statues, now, though. And I hope not at some time in the future either. If someone can point me to contemporary 'saints' who achieved as much for people as these two but without the racism (or other foibles) I'm happy to reconsider.
- Apr 5, 2014
- 25,887
I agree with that. In Hungary they have a park devoted to statues from the communism era.
As regards Twitter, you'd be surprised. I've seen some crude far right stuff in there that gets fawned upon by scores. In general, It's far uglier than the stuff from the left.
I don't know why some folk are anxious to hold onto history in this country rather than confront it. It may be why I was unconcerned about the toppling of the statue in such a mob like way. I felt it was creating history.
yxee
Well-known member
Agree with putting it in a museum. Its value is educating is about the past, a statue in a public place should be reserved for people we universally appreciate as a society.
I can understand the ambiguity of people’s feelings on Churchill, a great Wartime leader, probably this country wouldn’t have stood alone without his stubbornness. He was not a great peacetime leader though, and his undoubted racism was a definite drawback. His response to the 1943 Bengal famine, was, at best, incompetent, and at worse, murderous. 3 million dead from a completely manufactured famine, the only one in India not caused by adverse weather conditions but by government policies, granted, due to the War.
Churchill’s response that “The Indians breed like rabbits “ and it couldn’t be that bad, Mahatma Ghandi hasn’t died yet, should not be the responses of a national hero.
Lenny Rider
Well-known member
- Sep 15, 2010
- 6,009
I support the BLM protests.
I condemned the statue malarkey and suggested those involved (and the flag burner) be prosecuted.
I don't need a lesson on what Churchill did.
More tiresome whatboutery, with added speculation on what it will mean, later, if Churchill's statue is defaced, from yourself, like you actually want it to happen so you can spout off again
Please have a day off HWT, or better still come and have a day's work with me in the current situation, it might broaden your mind.
Trouble is they all look the same... ok ok
Well done to Mr Khan.
Brilliant leadership once again from the London Mayor in setting up a commission to look at removing statues, murals, street art, street names and other memorials. He has also ruled out memorials for people like Churchill & Gandhi being considered.
Getting rid of these memorials to horrific individuals in the correct way (i.e. not by a mob!) is the best outcome, such a shame that it needed a mob to kick the establishment into action.
Just like rape, slavery was wrong then and is wrong now, no more of this naive historical relativity BS anymore please.
Brilliant leadership once again from the London Mayor in setting up a commission to look at removing statues, murals, street art, street names and other memorials. He has also ruled out memorials for people like Churchill & Gandhi being considered.
Getting rid of these memorials to horrific individuals in the correct way (i.e. not by a mob!) is the best outcome, such a shame that it needed a mob to kick the establishment into action.
Just like rape, slavery was wrong then and is wrong now, no more of this naive historical relativity BS anymore please.
Just remove all statues. Its a flawed concept anyway.
If the criteria for having a statue of yourself is "did great things for the world", you need one of Hitler who in his role as a common enemy unified Europe, put a stigma on the war herois and played a huge part in concepts like colonialisation no longer being acceptable. He probably saved more lives than any other leader ever. Everyone should have 12 ft wooden Hitler (or other despotic ruler resulting in positive change) statue in the backyard if "resulted in good things" was the criteria.
If the criteria on the other hand is "being a perfect human with perfect values etc", more or less every single statue should be thrown in the river because there never was a person like that. Take the "definition of good" - Nelson Mandela. That man had blood on his hands as well. You can always find reasons and angles to why someone dont deserve a statue.
To me the whole statue concept is about worshipping famous or influential people and that in itself is just infantile bullshit (unless if its about Potter!).
If the criteria for having a statue of yourself is "did great things for the world", you need one of Hitler who in his role as a common enemy unified Europe, put a stigma on the war herois and played a huge part in concepts like colonialisation no longer being acceptable. He probably saved more lives than any other leader ever. Everyone should have 12 ft wooden Hitler (or other despotic ruler resulting in positive change) statue in the backyard if "resulted in good things" was the criteria.
If the criteria on the other hand is "being a perfect human with perfect values etc", more or less every single statue should be thrown in the river because there never was a person like that. Take the "definition of good" - Nelson Mandela. That man had blood on his hands as well. You can always find reasons and angles to why someone dont deserve a statue.
To me the whole statue concept is about worshipping famous or influential people and that in itself is just infantile bullshit (unless if its about Potter!).
Is it PotG?
Thrifty non-licker
I thought I was a maritime marvel
I believed that I ruled the waves
All I could say is time is motion
And every effort others made I would save
I was a shit stained statue
School children would stand in awe
I truly believed I was a ceiling or sky
Never thought about having flaws(floors)
© Paul Weller
I believed that I ruled the waves
All I could say is time is motion
And every effort others made I would save
I was a shit stained statue
School children would stand in awe
I truly believed I was a ceiling or sky
Never thought about having flaws(floors)
© Paul Weller
That's the worst reason I've ever heard for becoming a racist!
- Apr 5, 2014
- 25,887
From direct action to debate. I'd rather it have been the other way round.
There is something about our nation which is desperate to hold onto its past. As if its re-evaluation would somehow weaken a status long gone. I think there may be other nations who struggle with this too. But it has oft been mentioned to me by friends from other shores that the British seem to be dining out on the past and holding back on the future. Our attitude towards Europe is a reflection of this.
But history is in the now, not the then.
I actually find myself uncomfortable about some of this. But I know it's merely because of my conditioning. Younger folk are less bothered, and I think they are right to be. It's not about a loss of identity, it's about identifying with all that is good.
It makes some more conservative folk uncomfortable when I say I am proud to be English. But I'm proud because of the decisions like Khan is taking. We're not all still stuck in Natal trenches with our Lee Enfields at the ready.