Is it time to think about turning us into a REAL 'community club'?

[Dandyman]

yes but would fans be happy to see that all dissapear into the black hole

If the money bought a say in the club, they might. At the moment we are asked to stump up money (Alive & Kicking, Forty Notes) with no real say in what then happens.

The attached may give some answers to some of the questions raised:

http://www.supporters-direct.org/englandwales/library.htm#advice

 

[London Calling]

Remember we don't have to purchase the whole club, a proportion of the shares can be sold on a mutual basis!.

Obviously we can have our club owned by undemocratic, unelected businessmen or we can be owned like Barcelona and a large number of other Spanish, Italian, French sides by the supporters. I know in present scale, we appear completely different fro say a Barcelona. But that is due to long term investment of the community in their club.

Barcelona in pop terms is the same as East Sussex. If we think medium term we can progress our side, our resources into a realistic and reasonable financial institution. Enough to maintain Championship staus. Perhaps some of the businessmen aka Barcelona etc will throw more cash in for their club?

Alternatively,

Are we really expecting an oil rich baron to appear and throw in their black gold or a American Football executive looking for an investment opportunity?

I go along with Attila ideal, it has been discussed at SOL and received full backing from expats.

LC

 

[Dandyman]

This (from Supporters Direct) explains some of the differences between a Trust and an Independent Supporters Association:


"The organisational one is easy - it's our belief that an Industrial and Provident Society (IPS) offers the best way forward for fans groups – it’s legal assets can be owned 'corporately' in a group rather than being vested in individuals. Members also get the benefit of limited liability (and so do the elected officers in most cases) - members are only liable for £1 if anything goes wrong - for example, if the Trust is sued.
As a corporate body, the full force of the law can be brought to bear on anyone who misappropriates the funds. It's also democratic and not-for-profit and states clearly and boldly that a key aim is the securing of representation and strengthening the links between club and community. It's got the 'big idea' that helps get an organisation off the ground - the idea at the heart is "why always be criticising, when we can be running and participating - we think we can bring huge benefits to the club, so give us a chance - to own the club we love (or a part of it)".
As an IPS can own shares or property, it is a vehicle that can ultimately own the football club, and at the very least, own a significant shareholding. It can sign contracts with the club for shares received and set the terms of the deal - an ISA or supporters club, which is unincorporated is on much shakier ground in that regard. So and IPS is robust and can grow with you . The powers exist to employ staff, contract pensions and manage people within a democratic structure. There are businesses that are an IPS that are much bigger than fan groups and football clubs. The Co-op Group for example has a turnover of approximately £9Billion each year.
The fans at Chesterfield were able to take advantage of their situation by being an IPS, as were supporters at Lincoln City. An ISA would have been equally concerned about the situation at all of those clubs, but might have struggled to actually buy the club - just who would have bought it exactly? They would have raised money and campaigned and wanted to secure the future of the club, but would they have seen it as something they could and should do? That’s not to disparage those sorts of groups, just to indicate that instead of it being something they might do, it’s something a Trust is explicitly there to do.
Finally, the people who get involved in a Trust as members know that their money is protected - it can't be spent on anything other than what the constitution says, if it is anyone who does this can be taken to court.
However, an ISA could still be a Trust in the sense that it could convert to be an IPS and want a place on the board – this iswhere the attitudinal side comes in - it's about putting a professional face to the club and saying 'we're capable, skilled people with something to offer the club.’ That doesn't mean that you're unable to criticise or beholden to the club - as a democratic organisation, the members determine your policy and stance towards the club.
An IPS imposes certain disciplines on a group that we think can only be a good thing - democracy, accountability and transparency - and this can only reinforce the points you make. Basically, it comes down to what you want a body to do. In our view, an ISA, whilst a perfectly legitimate form of organisation, often becomes identified with a small band of individuals and might always seems to be criticising (even if it isn't in reality!). It is also limited in what it can do in terms of growth, and how secure that growth is. A Trust, constituted as an IPS stays in existence until its members decide to dissolve it, and so they have greater ability to stay around - often ISAs go into a lull when key individuals become inactive. All these are of course applicable to a Trust, but the disciplines we mention above make it more likely that weaknesses are identified and rectified. For starters, the act of becoming an IPS is a collaborative effort so you need a good team from the off."

 

[rool]

Interesting. Who do you mean?

Well, one example, just from dealing with the club as a sponsor/advertiser, I believe that the marketing dept was particularly poor almost to the point where I was having to chase the club to place adverts when they were desperate to fill programme space. I have been away for three years now so things may have been improved but I believe there was/is a family member in that dept who I never found to be impressive as far as drumming up business and who, I would imagine, would be on a salary at the going rate for that position.

I have other people in mind who I believed, rightly or wrongly, that their ultimate aim was always to get in with the heirarchy of the club by stealth and with minimum input for some kind of self promotion and just to be in the limelight of almost everything albion related. Being away means I just don't see that going on any more so it's no longer an issue with me.

 

[London Irish]

As much as what has happened at Bournemouth and Brentford, are they in a better or worse position? And is that because of, or in spite of their takeovers?

I would say Brentford are definitely in a better position because of the takeover, they have smaller debts, a better ground that they own and some exciting plans for a future stadium which they will meet less resistance on because there are greater brownfield sites in their area. I would be very happy to be a Brentford fan right now, get their next 5 to 10 years right and they have potential to be a permanent Championship level club, like us if we get our problems sorted.

B'muff the situation is a little more mixed but I don't see that they are worse off than us currently and that is down to the takeover that saved their club from oblivion. Maybe they will be worse off than us in the future. They have a decent stadium but don't own it because of money problems. They still are able to punch their weight in this league comfortably although it's hard to see how they are going to move forward beyond what they have now. Their long-term potential to move beyond third tier status doesn't seem that exciting.

But both these clubs are unquestionably better off after their fans' takeovers.

 

[London Irish]

Community Club is a socialist ideal....someone would still have to run it - someone would still have their decisions picked over disagreed with, ridiculed and questioned....given the amount of dissent amongst this small gathering of Brighton fans here on NSC - I daresay it wouldn't solve anything...

That might well all happen - but the point is there would be vastly higher direct participation by Albion fans in the running of the club, which would be a very good thing. Democracy and participation are good, lazy consumerism bad.

 

[rool]

What aspects do you want to see as being more accountable? What are you not happy about?

I was trying to search for what I said when this issue first came up but couldn't find it , however, it was along the line of that I believed that if the fans were being asked to contribute 250k that it was only right that there should be some accountability of where the money was going. What I personally didn't want happening was that the money allowed executive directors and senior staff to maintain their income levels with this money whilst player budget and the pool of high earning players was seemingly getting smaller (although I can't remember when the 'we have an improved player budget' line stopped, I am sure it carried on for a few years after Adams left despite recent comments otherwise).

 

[London Irish]

A supporters Trust could put a reasonable amount of investment into the club. If the Trust had 2000 members with a contribution of £500 each, for example, that is £1 million. For a club of our size that could be a significant share holding.

I think that is a reasonable ambition. We have to crawl before we can walk, a full takeover is probably beyond us currently. A supporters trust would be a good halfway house between Attila's progressive ideal and TLO's institutional apathy. A successful process of setting up a Supporters Trust would blow away a lot of cyncism and apathy I feel.

What we need right now is leadership and the right timing. Attila and the veterans of the anti-Archer struggle have to kick-start the process because they have the history and the credibility to establish an initial process of trust in the project.

The timing? Right now is wrong I feel. We are at a low ebb because of the debilitating last stages of the long Falmer battle and the divisive question of McGhee and how all that was handled.

But that will change once this shitty battle with Lewes is out of the way. Once the first soil is cut at Falmer, optimism will soar again and any organisation that catches that mood will succeed, that organisation should be the Supporters Trust.

I'm not suggesting nothing should be done for the next year though. There would be nothing wrong with the establishment of a small preparatory grouping/committee (open to all, no barriers) to start perparatory work, it could go round addressing Albion gatherings, SoL, Supporters Club, Fans Forums, maybe even use the live chatroom facility on the site for overseas people, propagandising for the concept of the trust and what it could achieve.

 

[Dave the OAP]

whislt i agree with what you say LI, the problem is the timing issue. I agree that it would be ideal to wait for the court case to be finally decided but that could be 2 years time, when any momentum we may have gathered would have been lost.

 

[rool]

I think that is a reasonable ambition. We have to crawl before we can walk, a full takeover is probably beyond us currently. A supporters trust would be a good halfway house between Attila's progressive ideal and TLO's institutional apathy. A successful process of setting up a Supporters Trust would blow away a lot of cyncism and apathy I feel.

What we need right now is leadership and the right timing. Attila and the veterans of the anti-Archer struggle have to kick-start the process because they have the history and the credibility to establish an initial process of trust in the project.

The timing? Right now is wrong I feel. We are at a low ebb because of the debilitating last stages of the long Falmer battle and the divisive question of McGhee and how all that was handled.

But that will change once this shitty battle with Lewes is out of the way. Once the first soil is cut at Falmer, optimism will soar again and any organisation that catches that mood will succeed, that organisation should be the Supporters Trust.

I'm not suggesting nothing should be done for the next year though. There would be nothing wrong with the establishment of a small preparatory grouping/committee (open to all, no barriers) to start perparatory work, it could go round addressing Albion gatherings, SoL, Supporters Club, Fans Forums, maybe even use the live chatroom facility on the site for overseas people, propagandising for the concept of the trust and what it could achieve.

I agree with all of that

 

[tedebear]

But without the capitalist structure of the club we will never get the stadium? So do we sit by and get our stadium and then when they've given it to us we take over the club? How fair is that?

 

[rool]

But without the capitalist structure of the club we will never get the stadium? So do we sit by and get our stadium and then when they've given it to us we take over the club? How fair is that?

I don't think a full take over would happen, especially as you would imagine there will be some sizeable investment when Falmer gets the green light, but the £1m investment suggested by Dandyman could be achievable.

 

[London Calling]

I think that is a reasonable ambition. We have to crawl before we can walk, a full takeover is probably beyond us currently. A supporters trust would be a good halfway house between Attila's progressive ideal and TLO's institutional apathy. A successful process of setting up a Supporters Trust would blow away a lot of cyncism and apathy I feel.

What we need right now is leadership and the right timing. Attila and the veterans of the anti-Archer struggle have to kick-start the process because they have the history and the credibility to establish an initial process of trust in the project.

The timing? Right now is wrong I feel. We are at a low ebb because of the debilitating last stages of the long Falmer battle and the divisive question of McGhee and how all that was handled.

But that will change once this shitty battle with Lewes is out of the way. Once the first soil is cut at Falmer, optimism will soar again and any organisation that catches that mood will succeed, that organisation should be the Supporters Trust.

I'm not suggesting nothing should be done for the next year though. There would be nothing wrong with the establishment of a small preparatory grouping/committee (open to all, no barriers) to start perparatory work, it could go round addressing Albion gatherings, SoL, Supporters Club, Fans Forums, maybe even use the live chatroom facility on the site for overseas people, propagandising for the concept of the trust and what it could achieve.

Agree,

There is no reason why the above cannot be extrapolated into a five year start up business plan for the Trust. We can get expert and free advice from a huge range of Social Enterprise business start up. I feel brothers and sisters that the weighty ball needs to start a rolling!!

 

[tedebear]

I don't think a full take over would happen, especially as you would imagine there will be some sizeable investment when Falmer gets the green light, but the £1m investment suggested by Dandyman could be achievable.

Ok - So saying that we get £1mill between us - how is that going to change the running of the club at the moment - would we be funding players - or paying debts incurred by our stadium fight?

I'm not against the idea of a community club at all - far from it - I just don't think its the right time to knee cap the efforts of the club mid-fight for a stadium?

 

[rool]

Ok - So saying that we get £1mill between us - how is that going to change the running of the club at the moment - would we be funding players - or paying debts incurred by our stadium fight?

I'm not against the idea of a community club at all - far from it - I just don't think its the right time to knee cap the efforts of the club mid-fight for a stadium?

I think that is covered by LI with this:-

The timing? Right now is wrong I feel. We are at a low ebb because of the debilitating last stages of the long Falmer battle and the divisive question of McGhee and how all that was handled.

But that will change once this shitty battle with Lewes is out of the way. Once the first soil is cut at Falmer, optimism will soar again and any organisation that catches that mood will succeed, that organisation should be the Supporters Trust.

I'm not suggesting nothing should be done for the next year though. There would be nothing wrong with the establishment of a small preparatory grouping/committee (open to all, no barriers) to start perparatory work, it could go round addressing Albion gatherings, SoL, Supporters Club, Fans Forums, maybe even use the live chatroom facility on the site for overseas people, propagandising for the concept of the trust and what it could achieve.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

Ok - So saying that we get £1mill between us - how is that going to change the running of the club at the moment - would we be funding players - or paying debts incurred by our stadium fight?

I'm not against the idea of a community club at all - far from it - I just don't think its the right time to knee cap the efforts of the club mid-fight for a stadium?

What were also saying is that the directors would have to dilute their own shareholding for this to take place. You can't guarantee that they'd all be prepared to do this.

Also, a supportes trust would come with its own maintenance cost. Including the investment, you'd have to either keep some money back for the adminsitration of the trust or charge an additional annual fee.

Having said the above - I do like the idea.

 

[London Calling]

What were also saying is that the directors would have to dilute their own shareholding for this to take place. You can't guarantee that they'd all be prepared to do this.

Also, a supportes trust would come with its own maintenance cost. Including the investment, you'd have to either keep some money back for the adminsitration of the trust or charge an additional annual fee.

Having said the above - I do like the idea.

All fine, Trusts are just alike any other Community Business, we have a fair few in the UK mainly focussing on mortagages, insurances and assurances. The running of the club will obviously have costs but on the other side of the balance sheet, we will have the income from matches (ticket sales, beer, food) + venue letting, renting or selling of other assets etc. Just like any other business.


How much of the present Directors actual cash - in number terms and %'s is going into the new stadium?

If I recall a large proportion will be loans from Banks and other institutions with other major elements being public sector monies thru the NDC.

The Trust is just as capable managing these debits and assets.

Roll on.

 

[Dandyman]

For those that might think this is all pie in the sky, the attached is a list of those clubs where Supporters Trusts currently exist (with links to the Trusts):

http://www.supporters-direct.org/englandwales/links.htm

 

[London Irish]

But without the capitalist structure of the club we will never get the stadium?

A more co-operative share ownership doesn't necessarily conflict with capitalist goals. If only

I think it would be news to Brentford and Bournemouth fans that they are twinned with Cuba

 

[attila]

All very interesting.
Personally I would love to see the Albion owned by the fans. Many clubs in mainland Europe are, as has been pointed out, but (sadly) the business culture and recent history of UK football is very different, with fans having much less of a say generally (which is the basic reason why we are the only country in Europe to have compulsory all seater stadia, our ticket prices are far more expensive, etc etc....Colin bloody Moynihan...don't get me started.......!!)


I agree with what appears to be the majority view here, which is that a full takeover is an unrealistic pipe dream, at least in the foreseeable future, but that a supporters' trust is a very good idea once we get the final go-ahead for Falmer with the extra injection of enthusiasm and optimism that this will bring. I do know from talking to the Brentford people that it entails a large amount of (unpaid) work done by people who are not just dedicated fans but are good at accounting, etc and experienced in such matters. And that infighting and controversy between supporters is a danger which has to be addressed. But, properly administered, basically it's a good idea which
at least gives us some formal status within the economic setup of the
club.