[News] Is Britain work shy ?

[Herr Tubthumper]

Agree with you fully… but that was the same circumstance I saw growing up, as did my mates. Everyone had a hard time.

We moved out our house to my grandparents for a while so the house could be rented out to cover the mortgage.
We never went on a holidays abroad, or had takeaways, cable tv….
People we knew sold possession to keep above the water (cash converters got massively popular) or rented items (TVs you put 50p in to watch)
We saw this as motivation to make something of our lifes.

Expectation of a-lot of the young are to high, wanting the big bucks, probably from seeing influencers 24/7. Many also want things instantly and that must be difficult to handle.

I expect a lot of the young think to themselves f*** that. This might be motivating to you and @PILTDOWN MAN , but grinding yourself into the ground isn’t for all….I’d hazard a guess and say most.

I genuinely think most people are proud and want to make something of their lives and look after those around them, but when the hope and inspiration starts to dissipate so does the enthusiasm.

I respect what you, and especially @PILTDOWN MAN man have done, but many would crack, not bother or think f*** this. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong, more that to begin to affect change we need to try and understand…I’m not sure everyone does.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

It doesn't matter what time of day I go to a supermarket , M&S Holmbush for example, car park is always packed, plenty of people have plenty of money somehow.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

quite a lot of guff. some mental gymnastics to pretend physical goods are useful and worthwhile, while service goods are not, it's just common room ponderings to justify an outlook that the world owes you, something more should be done for you. and contradictory, the physical products in China aren't worthwhile, but are when made local. anyway, the opening line really says it all: yes, some people have become workshy, they've changed their moral code towards working.

I don’t think @Han Solo was saying this? More than you can see the benefit to yourself, those around you and the country as a whole, if there is something tangible at the end.

 

[BadFish]

I expect a lot of the young think to themselves f*** that. This might be motivating to you and @PILTDOWN MAN , but grinding yourself into the ground isn’t for all….I’d hazard a guess and say most.

I genuinely think most people are proud and want to make something of their lives and look after those around them, but when the hope and inspiration starts to dissipate so does the enthusiasm.

I respect what you, and especially @PILTDOWN MAN man have done, but many would crack, not bother or think f*** this. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong, more that to begin to affect change we need to try and understand…I’m not sure everyone does.

At least when we were younger you knew that if you busted your jump your could afford a house, holiday and car.

Not sure what that looks like to our youth, especially those that see people working full time and still visiting the food bank.

There is enough money about and enough automation to not need everyone working full time. With a bit of reorgansation we could easily have people working 4 day weeks and shorter hours.

There would be a few less billionaires and tax dodging Clarkson types but personally I could live with that.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

At least when we were younger you knew that if you busted your jump your could afford a house, holiday and car.

Not sure what that looks like to our youth, especially those that see people working full time and still visiting the food bank.

There is enough money about and enough automation to not need everyone working full time. With a bit of reorgansation we could easily have people working 4 day weeks and shorter hours.

There would be a few less billionaires and tax dodging Clarkson types but personally I could live with that.

Agree. I was raised in Newhaven and only my father worked and he did unskilled work in the local factories, anyone remember them in Newhaven? Parker Pen, Vacco flasks and Bevan Funnell now all gone. We lived a bit hand-to-mouth, but with overtime he looked after us…he took both me and my brother to the football every fortnight, plus a few choice aways, we had a (UK) holiday every summer, we had nice presents at Xmas, my father could afford his vinyl. This was all achievable at the lowest end of the job market with some overtime. This provided him with the hope and inspiration he needed to get out of bed every day.

I’m not sure this is the case now ?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Right. I’d better go into my cosy office and push some paper around for a few hours.

 

[bluenitsuj]

So yes I was one of those that bought my first place aged 18. Worked a bit and then bang all was rosy, f*** you youngsters. Or the truth.....

I had two jobs, working 12 hours shifts as an aircraft engineer followed by 4 hours at a pub. My flat had a mattress, a deck chair and an old TV. After three years my flat was worth £16,000 less than I paid for it, my mortgage was higher than the wage I had as an engineer.

It was f***ing hard work with very little reward. These days the youngsters NEED all their comforts aren't prepared to go without, do what is needed to get ahead. I agree housing costs are an issue but so are expectations.

Far too easy to moan and do f*** all.

Agree. Too much entitlement these days.

 

[beorhthelm]

I don’t think @Han Solo was saying this? More than you can see the benefit to yourself, those around you and the country as a whole, if there is something tangible at the end.

seem to me to be say there nothing worthwhile in medical research, or keeping the internet servers running, serving a worker their beer at the end of day. on other hand, standing at a station on a production line stamping out some metal doobry for 8 hrs is worthwhile and you can see the contribution this has to society. i doubt younger people think an awful lot about the tangible output of one job over another, it's more about the earning your money. when you do give it some thought, someone wants the thing or service, someone is paying for it so they must value it.

the essay was trying to justify subverting the tradition of working for your living, claiming there's only value in industrial work, and with no industrial work to do, young people dont want to work. if he found a factory job there'd be some reason why it wasn't suitable. i did it for a bit and it was mindnumbing dull, i didn't think about the value of the product to society, i thought about how do I not have to do this shit.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

seem to me to be say there nothing worthwhile in medical research, or keeping the internet servers running, serving a worker their beer at the end of day. on other hand, standing at a station on a production line stamping out some metal doobry for 8 hrs is worthwhile and you can see the contribution this has to society. i doubt younger people think an awful lot about the tangible output of one job over another, it's more about the earning your money. when you do give it some thought, someone wants the thing or service, someone is paying for it so they must value it.

the essay was trying to justify subverting the tradition of working for your living, claiming there's only value in industrial work, and with no industrial work to do, young people dont want to work. if he found a factory job there'd be some reason why it wasn't suitable. i did it for a bit and it was mindnumbing dull, i didn't think about the value of the product to society, i thought about how do I not have to do this shit.

I did not read it like this, I'll leave it to Hans to explain himself.

As for Factory work I worked in Parker Pen for a while....I enjoyed it and did have a sense of value, purpose, and also pride, making pens which were a recognised brand and were sold all around the world. I got to work on some of the really expensive ones as well. I remember we all worked really long hours to fulfill a particular big order and were rewarded with the over time but also a surprise burger and chips takeway feast in the boardroom at the end of it. It was great and I felt valued.

I also worked in Bevan Funnell for a week but it made my hands sore. I'm not cut out for woodwork.

 

[S.T.U cgull]

Agree. Too much entitlement these days.

This is an attitude I can only despair at..

The cheapest property to rent in Burgess Hill pcm is £1,150 a month. Six years ago when I was renting, it was £780…

Add council tax (100 pcm), Food bills (200 pcm) utilities (150) thats £1,600 a month before you factor in phone/internet ; travel costs; money to spend on yourself..
Living like a hermit you still need to net out £2,200 a month just to standstill, for a one bed flat in mid-sussex.

Gross that up… you need to be on an income of approaching £40k just to rent a property. Average UK salary for a 20-29yr old, £25k..

It is categorically not entitlement, it is despondency and a lack of meaningful opportunity to progress careers / earnings at pace for many.

 

[Commander]

This is a very common phenomenon and a bit messed up.

"I worked endless hours with no payment and I want the same for young people today."

I get the pride and the strength that comes from accomplishing it but why would you want that when you know that most of the big employeers today make billions and pay shit? Is that really how it should be?

Maybe everyone under 25 isn't a bad, lazy human being. Maybe the job market just sucks arse, a rat race to the bottom. You being proud of what you did and what you do is one thing (and something I think you should be), but you why do you want it for others?

Because adversity builds you and prepares you for life. Having to do shit things means you appreciate it properly when you don't have to do shit things anymore. And enables you to deal with shit things when they inevitably come along again.

Young people might look at something and say that looks shit I'm not doing that, because they see people on Instagram earning millions from taking photos of themselves. But just because a job looks shit now, it will lead to other things if you do it well. And the journey to success is as much about the journey as it is the end goal. And I think that is what people have lost sight of- winning the lottery sounds great, but most of those people end up unfulfilled (and often skint) if it happens too early.

I really believe that is a massive part of the problem, the 'I want instant success' attitude that social media brings. I can totally see why a 16 year old would think stacking shelves at Sainsbury's for £7 an hour is a crap job, and it is. But I have a mate that did that at 16 and is now a Director of Sainsbury's in his 30's with a massive house and seems to spend half his life in the Caribbean. I've had young people quit my company after 6 months (who were actually doing really well) because they 'weren't seeing any success'. 6 f***ing months!! We seem to have lost all patience as a nation, and that is part of the problem.

 

[El Presidente]

To be fair to @Leekbrookgull he is simply reporting the narrative on the radio.

The comment about it being easier to get a (new) job if you have one was made by a caller. No idea if the caller was correct. But it seemed to work for my son.

Consider yourself whooshed

 

[portslade seagull]

I'm retired through redundancy 3yrs ago and taking my pension early. I have a little 7/8 hrs a week job on minimum pay which suits me.
Many many many yrs ago when I left school not stereotyping but many of the girls went to banking, typing pools and shopworkers whilst there was an abundance of apprenticeships for the boys and girls if interested in engineering, plumbing, general building works etc. These opportunities in the main have all but now disappeared so many youngsters just don't have the choices like us older ones did.

 

[Han Solo]

seem to me to be say there nothing worthwhile in medical research, or keeping the internet servers running, serving a worker their beer at the end of day. on other hand, standing at a station on a production line stamping out some metal doobry for 8 hrs is worthwhile and you can see the contribution this has to society. i doubt younger people think an awful lot about the tangible output of one job over another, it's more about the earning your money. when you do give it some thought, someone wants the thing or service, someone is paying for it so they must value it.

the essay was trying to justify subverting the tradition of working for your living, claiming there's only value in industrial work, and with no industrial work to do, young people dont want to work. if he found a factory job there'd be some reason why it wasn't suitable. i did it for a bit and it was mindnumbing dull, i didn't think about the value of the product to society, i thought about how do I not have to do this shit.

Those things have an intersubjectively agreed value which is - unlike food and other survival necessities such as roof over head - something that could change at any moment. It only has value as long as we collectively pretend it has value.

The volatile nature of services makes them insecure and people know it. Someone working in eg a mine knows that those will always be around (they were kind of wrong) because people need that shit and someone gotta do it. Automation surely posed a motivational threat to some to keep pushing, but unlikely to see same degree as outsourcing (global competition), digitalisation and AI today. In services? The profession of SEO writing lasted for like 20 years. Popped out of nowhere and now with zero future.

Young people worry about things like the job market, environmental/climate issues and while these are not directly about "tangible output", they are tied to it because unlike previous generations, there's a lack of desire to create more abundance and redundance.

Over-consumption is the main threat to life on this planet and young people from certain social classes and demographics don't want to put more fuel on the fire, at least not unless there's some more tangible personal benefit (better pay and better future) or societal benefit (someone actually getting any use, aside from filling a 'want', out of what you do).

 

[CheeseRolls]

Resilience is definetly a life skill and it is something it is possible to see lacking in a lot of young people these days. What I can't tell you, but expect that it is true is that peaking back through the mists of time some of us oldies have forgotten, how hard those lessons were for us too at a young age.

Job hunters have to pick their way through a layer of recruitment sharks, who are the estate agents of the modern age. Plenty of absolute low lifes work in this space, which makes it hard to find the good ones.

Then there are the HR departments. When you have huge numbers of organisations advertising for non-existant jobs and even going as far as interviewing, you know there is something definetly wrong. I think the theory is that lots of activity creates the impression of a successful organisation and makes it appear to the most desirable candidates that there will be lots of opportunities to get promoted if you join this organisation.

Then there are the AI job applications. If you do advertise a job you will get thousands of applicants. It is very easy to apply and sound plausible.
There are ways to sort the wheat from the chaff, but lets not pretend that all the grain ends up in the interview hop.

You don't just need a bit of resilience and some nice hand written letters to cut through this crap you need balls of steel and most importantly these days you need connections. Your best resources are very often the people you know. If you are a youngster and a little short on confidence this can be a huge gap in your CV.

 

[Billy in Bristol]

I would love a job.

 

[Weststander]

Possibly. But I’ve worked across a fair number of sectors and “hard work = rewards” is not my experience, nor is it what I’ve seen others experience. For my personally, I’ve only started really progressing when I stopped caring, and stopped working longer hours, and ultimately prioritised myself.

Now you’re talking hours, I totally agree with you. The people who occupied the workplace for long hours were playing the presenteeism game. Those who who had focus on leaving on time and having a life, were focused.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Now you’re talking hours, I totally agree with you. The people who occupied the workplace for long hours were playing the presenteeism game. Those who who had focus on leaving on time and having a life, were focused.

Those who would come into the office super early, have their Weetabix at their desk whilst surfing the net and say "afternoon" to those who came in at 9am

 

[maltaseagull]

At least when we were younger you knew that if you busted your jump your could afford a house, holiday and car.

Not sure what that looks like to our youth, especially those that see people working full time and still visiting the food bank.

There is enough money about and enough automation to not need everyone working full time. With a bit of reorgansation we could easily have people working 4 day weeks and shorter hours.

There would be a few less billionaires and tax dodging Clarkson types but personally I could live with that.

"There is enough money about and enough automation to not need everyone working full time. With a bit of reorgansation we could easily have people working 4 day weeks and shorter hours."

There would be a few less billionaires and tax dodging Clarkson types but personally I could live with that.

I don´t understand the correlation between these two.
Apologies,but can you explain please?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Easy to forget when discussing these things also a massive change that has happened in the last 50 years that changes the "moral code of working" and this changes the sense of achievement.

In industrial society, most people either harvested resources or worked in factories producing stuff out of resources.

Everything counted. When you went into that mine, you improved your country (and your own situation). When you fed the workers that did it, likewise. When your factory either built something that was used domestically or exported, it improved your country.

Service society isn't like that. The average new job is to produce things that don't exist in the physical reality to people who have no use of what they're buying and it only benefits a group of foreign American, Chinese or Qatarian men who you will never meet in reality.

The idea that working means "improving society" is a relic from days long behind. The average occupation in 2024 is wizardry. "Administration". "Customer service". "IT services". Common jobs outside of wizardry includes creating a gigantic Chinese produced junkyard of abundance, universally recognised as the largest threat to humanity.

Kids know this shit.

They know everything is fake.

In fact, a lot of them - through hearing about crypto - also know that the money is fake. The current ones have even seen it with their own eyes:
Throughout their entire lives, they get to hear about various crises due to underfunding of society. A lack of money to build houses and bla bla. They also get to hear about how important it is to work, because it is valuable to society.

Then covid comes and 80% of their parents are told to go home and masturbate for the next six months because in reality no one needs them. The money that didn't exist to create their future is suddenly created out of thin air to help bank, companies and people pay the rents as they sit at home.

To us who are 30+ maybe it doesn't impact the lens in which we see society all that much, but to most younger people it must have created a mindfuck. "What is this shit?", "Whats the point?", "Is anything real?".

This was sort of a Pandora's box experience to them. Once you get to the point where you ask yourself "what is the point of sitting around for eight hours telling people to restart their computer?" you're in the deep shit. Asking these existential questions may have been romanticised by suicidal poets and bearded batshit crazy hermits, but they harm people. Both living with those thoughts and the escape routes from those thoughts are often non-compatible with inspiration.

The two different way forwards is, I guess, either to literally force people to work or create a society where people spend more time drinking tea and less time on wizardy and pollution. I'm strongly in favour of the latter.

And yet your whole raison d’etre relies on services, IT and capitalism.

Here you are on a site supported by an IT infrastructure using a device supported by IT technicians writing about a game that sells tickets via a website, services at a ground, information on an app and you probably stream games using dark side economy tech.

The second football goes from people paying to play to people being paid to play it’s professional and needs support services. Especially if the owner is someone really clever who gets ahead by collecting and analysing data.