Interesting debate re free kicks and player walls

[Stat Brother]

on James Richardson's new podcast.

Is the wall a case of 'well we've always done it like this'.

Is a wall effective or just playing into the hands of the taker?
A player wouldn't beat the keeper from 30 yards one on one, so why have the obstruction?
Perhaps the attacking side would have to make the wall.

Further more, the taker relentlessly trains against a static wall 10 yards away.
Why not line up much further back?
Maybe all move forward during his run up.





As an aside Danny Blanchflower's Ireland was the first team to have a wall, while playing a superior Italy in the 1940's.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I play in goal. Any free kick over 25 yards out, I only ever have a one man wall. That's enough to stop the guy just putting his foot through it (he needs to think a BIT about directing it) but doesn't block my view of the ball.

I have let a few IN, of course, but generally right in top corners that a wall would have done little to prevent.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I can see a lot of merit in that argument. Of course what would happen in reality is that at some point a player would put his foot through one and it would fly straight in right through where the wall would have been, and the team would be crucified for being stupid. And that would be the end of that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

What are the statistics for a free kick hitting the wall regularly?

 

[Stat Brother]

I can see a lot of merit in that argument. Of course what would happen in reality is that at some point a player would put his foot through one and it would fly straight in right through where the wall would have been, and the team would be crucified for being stupid. And that would be the end of that.

When Northern Ireland did the first wall, there was an almighty kerfuffle, during which time the Italians moved the ball back 5 yards, and scored anyway.

But walls were still deemed to be a good thing.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Three years old but a quick google comes up with some Opta Pro stats that suggests the wall blocks a free kick 38% of the time, while the conversion rate in the same period was 5.7%.

#TeamWall

http://www.optasportspro.com/about/...g-free-kick-data-for-more-meaningful-results/

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Three years old but a quick google comes up with some Opta Pro stats that suggests the wall blocks a free kick 38% of the time, while the conversion rate in the same period was 5.7%.

#TeamWall

http://www.optasportspro.com/about/...g-free-kick-data-for-more-meaningful-results/

That doesn't really answer the debate though. Yes the wall blocked 38% of the free kicks, but maybe 95% of those 38% would have been comfortable saves for the keeper anyway? This is only really relevant for kicks 25-30yds out. No keeper would consider not having as big a wall as possible for a kick on the edge of the box. From that distance you'd not have chance to react to a well struck hit.

From 30 yards, a well set keeper would expect to save nearly anything.

 

[Stat Brother]

As an aside former 'keeper David Preece (who I'm quoting above) is singing Ryan's praises for passing the ball.

"Given license from his manager he will play the most ridiculous passes but the difference is he can do it... brave with the ball, better than Claudio Bravo".

 

[Guinness Boy]

That doesn't really answer the debate though. Yes the wall blocked 38% of the free kicks, but maybe 95% of those 38% would have been comfortable saves for the keeper anyway? This is only really relevant for kicks 25-30yds out. No keeper would consider not having as big a wall as possible for a kick on the edge of the box. From that distance you'd not have chance to react to a well struck hit.

From 30 yards, a well set keeper would expect to save nearly anything.

That's only a fraction of the debate too though.

If no wall then where are the other players to stand? They're not just going to allow a free shot. if the attackers formed a wall as suggested and the defence lined up behind the kicker they'd all be offside, and arguably influencing the play (that would be a debate in itself). If the defence didn't want to risk playing off side then they'd have to go somewhere goal side of the kick, potentially blocking or deflecting it. And playing offside would be stupid because the free kick could just be tapped square for an onrushing player who'd be one on one with a moving ball.

In other words you'd still have a static shot with players in between the ball and goal but arguably in more chaotic positions.

 

[shaolinpunk]

Three years old but a quick google comes up with some Opta Pro stats that suggests the wall blocks a free kick 38% of the time, while the conversion rate in the same period was 5.7%.

#TeamWall

http://www.optasportspro.com/about/...g-free-kick-data-for-more-meaningful-results/

I suppose the closest comparison metrics available would be to use Opta's new xG (expected goals) stats to compare how likely a freekick is to be scored versus a shot from the same distance in open play with no player within 10 yards. Ok the ball will probably be moving but the keeper will clearly see the shot.


As far as the podcast goes, I like it. Unsurprisingly it's Football Weekly in all but the name but, so far at least, seems to have a bigger variety of guests.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

I suppose the closest comparison metrics available would be to use Opta's new xG (expected goals) stats to compare how likely a freekick is to be scored versus a shot from the same distance in open play with no player within 10 yards. Ok the ball will probably be moving but the keeper will clearly see the shot.

It's not just about being able to clearly see the shot. It's about being SET for the shot. In open play you don't know when the shot will come. From a dead ball you do. Makes a huge difference.

 

[Gazwag]

You are never going to get the situation when its free kick taker v goalkeeper. If the defensive team don't make a wall you can bet the attacking team will block the keepers sight of the ball by making a wall which has no laws against, ie could be two yards from the taker and any wall they make will be moving around as the kicker runs up.

 

[Triggaaar]

A player wouldn't beat the keeper from 30 yards one on one, so why have the obstruction?

They're used more for free kicks under 30 yards.

Why not line up much further back?

Presumably that would give the keeper less view, and the taker would have more distance to get the ball up. They practice with the wall at 10 yards, but they could still use the same shot if the wall was at 15.

I play in goal. Any free kick over 25 yards out, I only ever have a one man wall. That's enough to stop the guy just putting his foot through it (he needs to think a BIT about directing it) but doesn't block my view of the ball.

I have let a few IN, of course, but generally right in top corners that a wall would have done little to prevent.

But if you've had no wall, presumably they've had the choice of top corners, and in some cases a wall would have stopped them going for one of the corners.

 

[Stat Brother]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear but the examples raised were 2 separate ones.

Free kicks from distance - Do you even need a wall?

The more 'traditional' freekicks from say 20 yards - Should the wall be exactly where the attacker trains for them to be?

 

[Stat Brother]

You are never going to get the situation when its free kick taker v goalkeeper. If the defensive team don't make a wall you can bet the attacking team will block the keepers sight of the ball by making a wall which has no laws against, ie could be two yards from the taker and any wall they make will be moving around as the kicker runs up.

What if all the defenders lined up on halfway? Not sure If I should use a or not?

 

[Worried Man Blues]

Why are the walls static, shirley it would be better if the players just ran around to confuse the kicker, of course it might confuse the keeper as well but it is strange no one has varied the wall position

 

[hans kraay fan club]

But if you've had no wall, presumably they've had the choice of top corners, and in some cases a wall would have stopped them going for one of the corners.

Getting the ball up and down from 30 yards (over a wall) isn't at all hard. They have a choice of both corners anyway. With a one (or two sometimes) man wall, you get way longer to pick up the flight of the shot, than a big wall. Other keepers will disagree I'm sure.

 

[Commander]

Surely this depends massively on the standard of free-kick taker? Hans Kraay fan club is unlikely to be beaten from 30 yards with no wall at the level he plays at (no offence old chap) but give Christiano Ronaldo a free kick with no wall, 30 yards out, and if he hits it right, it's going in, regardless of who the keeper is.

 

[HAILSHAM SEAGULL]

Without the wall, would the taker put as much swerve and dip on the ball. The wall actualy dictates the amount of bend the taker puts on the ball and also the direction towards the corner. And if they dont have to get it up and over the wall, that could make the angle of the kick trickier.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Surely this depends massively on the standard of free-kick taker? Hans Kraay fan club is unlikely to be beaten from 30 yards with no wall at the level he plays at (no offence old chap) but give Christiano Ronaldo a free kick with no wall, 30 yards out, and if he hits it right, it's going in, regardless of who the keeper is.

For sure.

But conversely the standard of the keepers would be much better too.