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Inquiry Day 21 - Thurs 14 April "Congestion issues"



ShorehamGull

He's now back
Jul 6, 2003
1,945
Shoreham of course
Inquiry day 21 (Wednesday 14th April)

It was a return to the NSC inquiry team for me after being unable to attend yesterday afternoon’s session.
No, I was not suspended or suffering injury, I just had to attend a job interview, so my priorities were pushed away from giving inquiry support to the Albion but also being able see Megan.

I arrived all in good time today, 45 minutes to be exact, and the only other person I found in the room at the time was Mr Clay, he was carefully reading some notes or it may have been a copy of this weeks Dennis the Menace comic.
I had turned up early under the impression is was a 9:30 kick off, but soon found out it was a 10am start, this makes a change because I am usually late.
Gaffer arrived 5 minutes after me and was under the same impression as me that it was a 9:30 start. After conversation with Gaffer I soon realised what I had missed yesterday, all this trouble starts when I’m not there.
I blamed Gaffer for not keeping control of yesterday’s session properly, and not sending off anyone that was out of order.

Megan arrived with her usually radiant smile, as I said “Good Morning” to her. After a “Good Morning” reply to me she proceeded to her seat, which for the last couple of days has been on the dark side of the chamber (Nimby Gallery). This is not Megan’s fault; there are no seats available that are within easy hearing distance of Mr Clay, but there again I can offer a lap she can sit on.

Today’s session was a continuation of yesterday witness Mr Joseph Ellis, the transport expert for Toads Hole Valley. I think someone has found it funny to stick superglue on the witnesses’ chair, because they always seem to spend hours in that chair within moving a muscle.
Mr Clay continued cross examination of Mr Ellis about his evidence on the transport issues of THV. Mr Clay asks about available car parking on the THV site next to the stadium, of which 1467 spaces will be available for weekend matches and 700 for weekday matches. Mr Ellis explained that a reduced number of cars on weekdays coming to THV would easily reduce congestion in the surrounding area. But as Mr Clay pointed out this would cause more people to park in residential streets in the Toad Hole area for those who could not get any available spaces nearer the stadium.

The debate went to issues concerning the congestion that would be caused at the Dyke Road roundabout and the slip roads that go from it (East and West bound).
Mr Clay challenged Mr Ellis about congestion on the slip road heading west bound from Brighton up to the Dyke Road roundabout. From his calculation Mr Clay carefully worked out that there would be too much congestion on the slip road and tail backs would go back up to and beyond the A23/A27 westbound turn off. Mr Clay said the Highways agency would reject any transport application for that area because of safety.
Mr Ellis claimed that only a small amount of congestion would be caused, but his calculations were only based on cars, he had not allowed for coaches, buses, etc.
Mr Ellis in his evidence had ear-marked Mill Road as a possible good park and ride area for up to 1500 cars, but the thing is that parts of the Mill Road are within the AONB.
This got me thinking about his Mill Road idea, and yes I do think from time to time. Let’s say the stadium goes at THV and we park our cars in Mill Road, how are we going to negotiate getting across the Dyke road roundabout and down Kings George 6th Avenue? Have we got to have a lollipop lady standing there stopping hundreds of cars so we can get to the stadium?
Battles went on about traffic and congestion before Mr Clay finished before lunch to have treatment on his back by a young lady physio, Mr Clay came back after lunch in a very good mood.

Anyway Miss McPherson was the next to get down and dirty with Mr Ellis, asking him a series of questions about walking times and distances to and from train stations for THV
At one point Miss McPherson blew her top after Mr White kept on interrupting and trying to answer Mr Ellis questions for him. Miss McPherson shouted saying “Mr White will you PLEASE NOT interrupt me while I am asking Mr Ellis questions”, Mr White leaped to his feet saying he did not agree with the questions, Mr Brier steps in to break up the fight for which I think Miss M would of won.
Miss McPherson finished, and after a few questions from Mr White concerning Sheepcote Valley, Mr Ellis could now get unstuck from his seat.
And that was the completion of the day for everyone, as the bell went for end of another inquiry day.
We have a possible half day tomorrow with Ms Hazel McKay (Regency Society) reading her closing submission.
It also looks as though the inquiry will be sitting on the 3rd, 4th and 5th of May now instead of just the 4th of May like originally scheduled at the end beginning of the week. This is so that LDC, Brighton and Hove City council and the club can read their closing submission.
Much to my disappointment it looks as though it’s Megan last day tomorrow, she is moving to another department within the company she works for, I am certainly going to miss her. Also it’s possibly my last day at the inquiry as well because of work commitments. Ok I don’t yet know the outcome of yesterday’s job interview until next week, but there is a good possibility I will be working somewhere when the inquiry is back on again for those few days in May.

SG News at 23:30 Brighton Town Hall
 




And my version ...


This wasn’t the easiest of Inquiry sessions to follow. At times, even the lawyers had difficulty. Simple questions never seemed to get simple answers. Some questions got no answers at all. And there were times when questions and answers were flying backwards and forwards and things still made no sense in the public gallery.

The main witness was, once again, Joseph Ellis, transport consultant acting on behalf of the owners of Toads Hole Valley. He’d already rubbed the Albion’s representatives up the wrong way, by bringing up contentious evidence without notice. That had sparked a row that had disrupted the Inquiry timetable.

Jonathan Clay’s cross-examination of Mr Ellis resumed. But it got off to a bad start, with the Albion’s lawyer unable to get a straightforward answer to the question of how many parking spaces were needed at Toads Hole Valley. Was Mr Ellis making a case for 1,467 spaces, as his original written evidence had suggested? It seemed not. Was it 700, as his supplementary evidence suggested, prepared after he’d seen a letter from the Highways Agency who were worried about traffic queuing back on to the A27? Again, it seemed not.

Mr Ellis read from his written evidence. Mary Macpherson, for the City Council, complained that he was reading too fast. Mr Clay asked for a straight answer. The Inspector intervened, explaining that he “found it very difficult to follow the witness’s line of response”. Eventually, it turned out that there might be 1,467 parking spaces, but only 700 of them would be available for a weekday evening match. So that was the answer? No. It was an option, and further study might be necessary. “I don’t want to mislead the Inquiry by giving a commitment to a definite number”.

The problem did seem to be the Highways Agency. Their letter had said that 1,467 parking spaces so close to the road junction off the A27 would lead to “insuperable traffic problems”. Mr Ellis seemed to think that not letting cars into the car park when the trunk road was busy might prevent the junction getting clogged up.

“Was this all about safety?” asked Mr Clay. “I’d prefer to use the term hazard” came the reply. Was there a difference? “Crossing the road is a hazard, crossing a busy road raises questions of safety”, said Mr Ellis, helpfully. Or confusingly – take your pick.

And then we settled back to listen to a lot of stuff about RFC values and design standards for road junctions, which nobody seemed to understand. “Ratio of Flow to Capacity”, since you ask. Now do you understand? I thought not. I don’t think anyone did. At least not the way that Mr Ellis explained.

It all ended up with Mr Clay suggesting that, if he thought there would be a problem with queues on the A27, maybe Mr Ellis should be looking for a solution. “Not at this stage”, said Mr Ellis. He preferred to wait for a planning application for a stadium to be made, and then there would be a comprehensive Transport Assessment, and then the Highways Agency might even decide that there wasn’t the problem that they thought there was.

“I think the Inspector will have to decide what weight to give to your evidence”, said Mr Clay, dryly.

Indeed. Things then got even more removed from common sense, when the discussion moved on to the subject of on-street parking controls. With only 700 cars allowed into the stadium car park, there would obviously be a problem with parking in the neighbouring residential streets. All the other transport experts had recognised that there would be a need for a Controlled Parking Zone. Mr Ellis was asked how big he thought that CPZ should be.

His answer amazed everyone. “CPZs are not there to stop people parking outside someone else’s house”. Eh? What are they for, then? Safety, apparently. Or was it hazards? I was too confused to follow the argument. It seemed that parking was another problem that Mr Ellis couldn’t solve.

Except that when Mary Macpherson asked questions on behalf of the City Council, he did come up with a few ideas, like developing new park and ride sites. Hangleton Bottom, or Green Ridge (off Mill Road and likely to be in the new National Park, meaning another Public Inquiry just about that), or Sussex University (already ruled out as a football car park by the City Council, unless it’s to serve a new stadium at Falmer).

All completely unrealistic. Toads Hole Valley is looking a very unlikely prospect for an Albion Stadium.

And that’s the end of the evidence gathering at this Inquiry. All that is left are the Closing Submissions by the major parties. Thanks to Mr Ellis taking the best part of two whole days not to come up with any solutions to transport problems, it is now certain that the Inquiry will need at least two days in May before it’s completed. Look forward to Thursday 5 May being the last day.

And finally … At the end of today’s session, both the Albion and the City Council indicated that they would be pursuing claims against the Toads Hole Valley people for costs, following all the shenanigans over the past few weeks. Exactly how this will shake out is still uncertain, all the more so since Trevor Blaney, the THV solicitor has said that he can’t be there to respond to those claims. He wasn’t at all happy when the Inspector told him that there were no powers to force the parties to provide him with advance details of their claims, to allow him to brief a substitute.

Mr Blaney sounded very aggrieved as he complained about this. “It is not in the interests of any party to this Inquiry for procedural irregularities to occur”.

Perhaps your people should have thought about that a bit earlier, Mr Blaney.
 




Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,416
Location Location
Lord Bracknell said:
And finally … At the end of today’s session, both the Albion and the City Council indicated that they would be pursuing claims against the Toads Hole Valley people for costs, following all the shenanigans over the past few weeks
Clearly the THV reps have a lot to answer for in the way they have "prepared" their case and conducted themselves at this inquiry, but LDC have certainly got some neck on them in also pursuing a claim. They've hardly covered themselves in glory either when you consider the numerous delays and timetable f***-ups they've instigated during this unholy mess.


Once again though, absolutely top reporting fella's. :clap: :clap:
 


Highfields Seagull

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
1,448
Bullock Smithy
Easy 10 said:
Clearly the THV reps have a lot to answer for in the way they have "prepared" their case and conducted themselves at this inquiry, but LDC have certainly got some neck on them in also pursuing a claim. They've hardly covered themselves in glory either when you consider the numerous delays and timetable f***-ups they've instigated during this unholy mess.


I think it's us and B&H City Council pursuing the claim, not LDC
 












Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,416
Location Location
Curious Orange said:
Is that a light I see at the end of this very long tunnel?
Yes, but its probably a train thundering towards us.
 


The Auditor

New member
Sep 30, 2004
2,764
Villiers Terrace
Thanks for keeping us all up to date with this...now the long wait.If finally summing up is 4th/5th may are we looking at the end of July for the decision?
 


Superseagull

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2003
2,123
The Auditor said:
Thanks for keeping us all up to date with this...now the long wait.If finally summing up is 4th/5th may are we looking at the end of July for the decision?

I would hope sometime pre-season. The decision will have a big impact on our playing budget for next season - whether we pay £££'s to QC's lawyers, consultants or £££'s on players!

Remember there is a limited transfer window next year like the Premiership so we need to make sure we have a decent squad before the season starts.
 




One thing that really worries Me is this,Anyone with atleast half an apricot for a brain can see that Sheepcote and THV are non-starters,however if Mr Brier is not a football person then We're bolloxed.The last inquiry didn't seem to throw up anything to hurt Us but Collyer and(arse)Hoile tore it up for arse paper,could it be as simple as that,If the Inspector doesn't like football He may well be swayed by the crap We have had to put up with from these Morons representing THV,please tell Me I'm wrong someone.Also is Sheepcote and THV the only real alternatives that the NIMBYs and LDC are hanging their hats on,have they all but given up on the other riddiculous sites?
 


Easy 10

Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Jul 5, 2003
62,416
Location Location
Dunno how much of a football person David Brier is, but he's definately been to at least one match. We know this because of the anecdotal comment he made during the birdwatching sessions of the Inquiry, when he mentioned that he'd often seen pied wagtails on the pitch at football grounds.

Sheepcote and THV do indeed seem to be the alternate sites LDC and the NIMBYS are clinging to. But from the approach the owners of THV have taken, with the farcicle and, frankly laughable ridiculous "evidence" they have presented to argue the case, and the delays they've caused in doing it, if THV wasn't already dead in the water I think they've all but seen to it that it is now.

As for Sheepcote - I think the environmental impact has been convincingly proved to be far greater than that of Falmer, and thats before you consider the inferior transport links as well.

It should all point to one thing....
 


Gritt23

New member
Jul 7, 2003
14,902
Meopham, Kent.
ShorehamGull said:
Inquiry day 21 (Wednesday 14th April)

Mr Ellis claimed that only a small amount of congestion would be caused, but his calculations were only based on cars, he had not allowed for coaches, buses, etc.

So having based his proposal on numerous park and rides schemes that will take all of the buses, and more, that the local bus companies can provide, he then fails to realise they will be driving to the ground and therefore adding to the congestion.

Is there no end to the amateurish nature of the evidence being presented to the Inspector? He must be close to throwing his hands up in the air and shouting "Bullshit, you are all full of bullshit. I throw out all of these alternative sites as none of you could plan a shag in a whorehouse, let alone a stadium" And with that he flounces out to leave Falmer as the approved site.

Delays, yeah sure. But I can't see that anyone is making a vaguely coherant argument in opposition to us.
 






Curious Orange

Punxsatawney Phil
Jul 5, 2003
10,226
On NSC for over two decades...
s.stubbs said:
... if Mr Brier is not a football person then We're bolloxed.The last inquiry didn't seem to throw up anything to hurt Us but Collyer and(arse)Hoile tore it up for arse paper,could it be as simple as that,If the Inspector doesn't like football He may well be swayed by the crap We have had to put up with from these Morons representing THV,please tell Me I'm wrong someone

You are wrong, Mr Brier isn't making a recommendation in his report.

Happier?

:)
 








dougdeep

New member
May 9, 2004
37,732
SUNNY SEAFORD
Just say yes. Then you can all go home. You know it makes sense.
 


Re: Re: Inquiry Day 21 - Thurs 14 April "Congestion issues"

Gritt23 said:
So having based his proposal on numerous park and rides schemes that will take all of the buses, and more, that the local bus companies can provide, he then fails to realise they will be driving to the ground and therefore adding to the congestion.
How the hell Ellis thinks the buses, coaches and cars will get from the A27 to the ground is a complete mystery. The top end of King George VI Avenue will be over-run with pedestrians walking from the car park in Mill Road.

But such matters can be ignored at this stage, because it's only when the planning application is submitted that a proper Transport Assessment needs to be done.
 


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