[News] Incident in Nice, France

[Bold Seagull]

The Christian, Jewish religions have moved on from the medieval era. Part of Islam has not in my opinion.

You're right, but not entirely. Christian faith still has it's fanatics. Anders Breivek identified himself as a Christian Terrorist. Acts of murder and violence have been committed by Christian groups in the US particularly against professionals involved in abortions. Right wing, white supremacy mostly christian terrorism is now recognised as the biggest terrorist threat in the US. The US won't even pass legislation to reduce gun ownership after a mass shooting.

That's before we even get into the Catholic Church's abhorrent collusion and conspiracy to cover up decades of child abuse as if it was some kind of accepted consequence of priesthood celibacy.

 

[cunning fergus]

You're right, but not entirely. Christian faith still has it's fanatics. Anders Breivek identified himself as a Christian Terrorist. Acts of murder and violence have been committed by Christian groups in the US particularly against professionals involved in abortions. Right wing, white supremacy mostly christian terrorism is now recognised as the biggest terrorist threat in the US. The US won't even pass legislation to reduce gun ownership after a mass shooting.

That's before we even get into the Catholic Church's abhorrent collusion and conspiracy to cover up decades of child abuse as if it was some kind of accepted consequence of priesthood celibacy.

You may want to weave a narrative that Breivik was a Christian terrorist but that’s just not true is it?

He was no more a Christian terrorist than Alexander Mair.

His targets, like Mair’s were entirely political, not religious.

Beyond standard deflection the prevailing US terrorist risk and vagaries of the Catholic Church historically has nothing to do with Frenchies having their heads lopped off in France.

Albeit if there was a country in the world than would be used to head lopping generally speaking, it would be France.

 

[highflyer]

Ironically, Neo Nazis and these conservative Islamists probably have loads in common.

More than that, they have a common agenda. To stir up race/religeous hatred and conflict. Both neo-nazis and islamic extremists will be celebrating the atrocity in Nice and many of the posts on here are responding exactly as both neo-nazis and jihadists would wish. As such they are inadvertenty advancing the agenda of both of these groups.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You may want to weave a narrative that Breivik was a Christian terrorist but that’s just not true is it?

He was no more a Christian terrorist than Alexander Mair.

His targets, like Mair’s were entirely political, not religious.

Beyond standard deflection the prevailing US terrorist risk and vagaries of the Catholic Church historically has nothing to do with Frenchies having their heads lopped off in France.

Albeit if there was a country in the world than would be used to head lopping generally speaking, it would be France.

I wasn't commenting on events in France, I was commenting on a statement by another poster regarding religion.

I clearly stated what Anders Breivik identified himself as, that isn't weaving a narrative, that is what he stated, so is true.

The only one weaving quite clearly is you.

 

[cunning fergus]

I wasn't commenting on events in France, I was commenting on a statement by another poster regarding religion.

I clearly stated what Anders Breivik identified himself as, that isn't weaving a narrative, that is what he stated, so is true.

The only one weaving quite clearly is you.

No I’m not.......

https://www.theguardian.com/comment.../jul/24/norway-anders-behring-breivik-beliefs

Breivik in his 1500 page manifesto stated clearly he was NOT a religious man, his link to Christianity was cultural not religious. He hated the developing multiculturalism in Norway so sought to align himself with its historical traditions, which, as they are throughout Europe (or Christendom in old money) are Christian.

It’s not a difficult concept to understand is it?

 

[WilburySeagull]

I wasn't commenting on events in France, I was commenting on a statement by another poster regarding religion.

I clearly stated what Anders Breivik identified himself as, that isn't weaving a narrative, that is what he stated, so is true.

The only one weaving quite clearly is you.

You are right that is what he said. However, it doesn't follow that it is objectively true. That kind of thinking leads to Muslim=terrorist, a dangerous error.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You are right that is what he said. However, it doesn't follow that it is objectively true. That kind of thinking leads to Muslim=terrorist, a dangerous error.

No of course not, hence I didn't say 'he was religious' I simply said that is what he identified himself with, whether that was culturally, for the purpose of stoking anti-islam feeling etc. his manifesto is littered with references to the bible and Christianity. No one can definitely know what he was actually thinking, well maybe other than [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] who seems to know for certain.

 

[Razzoo]

If the terrorism succeeds and free speech and the likes of Charlie Hebdo are silenced then bloody violence wins and tolerance fails. It's more and more apparent that extreme and radical Islamic beliefs are not compatible with western/secular nations. I despair that these events are almost normal now. Part and parcel as it were.

 

[Chief Wiggum]

Long term France is lost, soon to be followed by many other Western countries.

The demographics will eventually and inevitably determine that (probably in a couple of generations)

Once a Muslim political party is formed and gains traction in any of these countries then that is the start of the end game.

Appeasement never works. We're only delaying the inevitable violence that, sadly, will follow as some finally wake up and fight a rearguard action, which will then only escalate as more Islamofascists, aided by extremist Islamic states, come over to Europe to defend their outposts (as appears to be already happening - on a warped individual basis - judging by the fact that the Nice extremist was a recently arrived 'refugee' from Tunisia).

Unlike other religions that have settled peacefuly amongst us, Islam hates us, hates our values and doesn't even try to hide it, yet still we tolerate their extremists within our midst.

In the book "Black Swan" Talib Nassim described how Lebanon went from a multi faith, multicultural country to an Islamic nation, solely through an increase in population and subsequent political power.

I expect the formation of the British Islamic Party in the future.

Islam is only concerned with Islam. As much as we talk about inclusion, tolerance and diversity - as noble as these traits are - and the latest horrific, personal and no doubt physically difficult act, of beheading of a 70 year old woman with a knife, is pushed down the headlines, forgotten and described benignly with headlines such as 'Incident in Nice' in order not to upset or offend anyone, then we will eventually reap what we sow.

I would love to be proved wrong, but somehow I doubt I will be. What's the practical answer? I have no idea to be honest, but Macron should be supported in his tardy efforts to call out Islamic extremism for what it is and an honest and open conversation about one of the defining issues of our time (without resorting to name calling) would be a start.

 

[Deanbha]

Long term France is lost, soon to be followed by many other Western countries.

The demographics will eventually and inevitably determine that (probably in a couple of generations)

Once a Muslim political party is formed and gains traction in any of these countries then that is the start of the end game.

Appeasement never works. We're only delaying the inevitable violence that, sadly, will follow as some finally wake up and fight a rearguard action, which will then only escalate as more Islamofascists, aided by extremist Islamic states, come over to Europe to defend their outposts (as appears to be already happening - on a warped individual basis - judging by the fact that the Nice extremist was a recently arrived 'refugee' from Tunisia).

Unlike other religions that have settled peacefuly amongst us, Islam hates us, hates our values and doesn't even try to hide it, yet still we tolerate their extremists within our midst.

In the book "Black Swan" Talib Nassim described how Lebanon went from a multi faith, multicultural country to an Islamic nation, solely through an increase in population and subsequent political power.

I expect the formation of the British Islamic Party in the future.

Islam is only concerned with Islam. As much as we talk about inclusion, tolerance and diversity - as noble as these traits are - and the latest horrific, personal and no doubt physically difficult act, of beheading of a 70 year old woman with a knife, is pushed down the headlines, forgotten and described benignly with headlines such as 'Incident in Nice' in order not to upset or offend anyone, then we will eventually reap what we sow.

I would love to be proved wrong, but somehow I doubt I will be. What's the practical answer? I have no idea to be honest, but Macron should be supported in his tardy efforts to call out Islamic extremism for what it is and an honest and open conversation about one of the defining issues of our time (without resorting to name calling) would be a start.

This in a nutshell.

 

[portlock seagull]

Long term France is lost, soon to be followed by many other Western countries.

The demographics will eventually and inevitably determine that (probably in a couple of generations)

Once a Muslim political party is formed and gains traction in any of these countries then that is the start of the end game.

Appeasement never works. We're only delaying the inevitable violence that, sadly, will follow as some finally wake up and fight a rearguard action, which will then only escalate as more Islamofascists, aided by extremist Islamic states, come over to Europe to defend their outposts (as appears to be already happening - on a warped individual basis - judging by the fact that the Nice extremist was a recently arrived 'refugee' from Tunisia).

Unlike other religions that have settled peacefuly amongst us, Islam hates us, hates our values and doesn't even try to hide it, yet still we tolerate their extremists within our midst.

In the book "Black Swan" Talib Nassim described how Lebanon went from a multi faith, multicultural country to an Islamic nation, solely through an increase in population and subsequent political power.

I expect the formation of the British Islamic Party in the future.

Islam is only concerned with Islam. As much as we talk about inclusion, tolerance and diversity - as noble as these traits are - and the latest horrific, personal and no doubt physically difficult act, of beheading of a 70 year old woman with a knife, is pushed down the headlines, forgotten and described benignly with headlines such as 'Incident in Nice' in order not to upset or offend anyone, then we will eventually reap what we sow.

I would love to be proved wrong, but somehow I doubt I will be. What's the practical answer? I have no idea to be honest, but Macron should be supported in his tardy efforts to call out Islamic extremism for what it is and an honest and open conversation about one of the defining issues of our time (without resorting to name calling) would be a start.

Honest and accurate assessment.

 

[cunning fergus]

No of course not, hence I didn't say 'he was religious' I simply said that is what he identified himself with, whether that was culturally, for the purpose of stoking anti-islam feeling etc. his manifesto is littered with references to the bible and Christianity. No one can definitely know what he was actually thinking, well maybe other than [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] who seems to know for certain.

You’re such a tinker. You stated clearly that the “Christian faith” had its fanatics before then referencing Breivik.

Now you state I didn’t say “he was religious”.

It’s quite clear what you are doing, it’s straight out the apologists playbook whenever there is an atrocity like the one in Nice.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It’s fine, you got something wrong and need to call me a label to hide it. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[Eeyore]

Just ban ALL Muslims and be done with it. Sickos, the lot of them. RIP to the victims.

How does one 'ban' all Muslims ? Asking for a dear Muslim friend who happily lives in Brighton. He'll need to know how to become a 'sicko' as well because he's never been one.

Amazed the French allowed this prick to survive his injuries surely an 'accidental discharge' in the close vicinity of his temple would've been appropriate?

No, it would have been what he wanted. A lifetime jail term in single confinement where he can contemplate his evil. I understand that his faith, if he is genuinely devoted, won't let him take his own life either.

I think it is easy to brainwash people who are angry with the world or feel they have nothing.




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Yes. It's less of an issue in societies where folk are more affluent. That is not to excuse, but happenings such as this cannot be truly understood without a holistic perspective. That, of course, in no way endorses such actions. It is an evil act.

 

[Eeyore]

Long term France is lost, soon to be followed by many other Western countries.

The demographics will eventually and inevitably determine that (probably in a couple of generations)

Once a Muslim political party is formed and gains traction in any of these countries then that is the start of the end game.

Appeasement never works. We're only delaying the inevitable violence that, sadly, will follow as some finally wake up and fight a rearguard action, which will then only escalate as more Islamofascists, aided by extremist Islamic states, come over to Europe to defend their outposts (as appears to be already happening - on a warped individual basis - judging by the fact that the Nice extremist was a recently arrived 'refugee' from Tunisia).

Unlike other religions that have settled peacefuly amongst us, Islam hates us, hates our values and doesn't even try to hide it, yet still we tolerate their extremists within our midst.

In the book "Black Swan" Talib Nassim described how Lebanon went from a multi faith, multicultural country to an Islamic nation, solely through an increase in population and subsequent political power.

I expect the formation of the British Islamic Party in the future.

Islam is only concerned with Islam. As much as we talk about inclusion, tolerance and diversity - as noble as these traits are - and the latest horrific, personal and no doubt physically difficult act, of beheading of a 70 year old woman with a knife, is pushed down the headlines, forgotten and described benignly with headlines such as 'Incident in Nice' in order not to upset or offend anyone, then we will eventually reap what we sow.

I would love to be proved wrong, but somehow I doubt I will be. What's the practical answer? I have no idea to be honest, but Macron should be supported in his tardy efforts to call out Islamic extremism for what it is and an honest and open conversation about one of the defining issues of our time (without resorting to name calling) would be a start.

I won't contest this, as it has long been time to open up a reasoned discourse on the effects of multi-cultural society and it's benefits and drawbacks. I tend to avoid it. I once made an entry giving what I saw as a balanced view and got a 'thumbs up' from one of the resident 'group of five' who would never seek an endorsement from. I despise far-right ideology and believe that immigration has seen more benefits than drawbacks.

The term 'multi-cultural society' is a blanket catch all phrase that only describes the demographic make up rather than the cohesion of its composition. I do not believe that Europe has a multi-cultural society as much as a plural form of mono-culturalism. You in your small corner and I in my mine. It ticks boxes of pious comfort and any questioning of its effects is met with throw-away accusations of discrimination. Easily done when you have headline phrases such as 'tolerance'. Tolerance is not acceptance. A tolerant society is one that is deemed to have contrary values yet reluctantly allows contrary ways of existence to function through some lofty benevolence. It is divisive.

I love London, the creeds, colours, languages. It is a truly international city. But that is the tube, Oxford Street, high streets in the boroughs. But once folk have finished work many leave the tube stations at different exits. Somalis may go one way, South Asians another, and so on. I would suggest that integration in the UK is better than elsewhere, but when you have an inherited insular mindset (and this applies to folk of British ancestry as well as generation immigrants) there may at some stage be conflict down the line. The truth is we don't want to believe that for two reasons. One, the solution seems beyond us, and, two, we worry about the manifestation of extremism when such a discourse is had. No-one wants to see skinheads with Union Jacks claiming the moral high ground, no-one wants to see people chanting for a medieval system of governance based on outdated religious law. And that is why the divisions may get wider over time and power struggles go unchecked.

Most folk just want to live peacefully with a shared value of kindness and goodwill. That includes people of all races. I think the UK is pretty good at that. But for as long as there is no resolution of potential conflictions in the parts of society that are segregated, especially on the mainland in places like France, the extremists on all sides will continue to recruit. That is a worry as the decades roll by.

 

[cunning fergus]

I won't contest this, as it has long been time to open up a reasoned discourse on the effects of multi-cultural society and it's benefits and drawbacks. I tend to avoid it. I once made an entry giving what I saw as a balanced view and got a 'thumbs up' from one of the resident 'group of five' who would never seek an endorsement from. I despise far-right ideology and believe that immigration has seen more benefits than drawbacks.

The term 'multi-cultural society' is a blanket catch all phrase that only describes the demographic make up rather than the cohesion of its composition. I do not believe that Europe has a multi-cultural society as much as a plural form of mono-culturalism. You in your small corner and I in my mine. It ticks boxes of pious comfort and any questioning of its effects is met with throw-away accusations of discrimination. Easily done when you have headline phrases such as 'tolerance'. Tolerance is not acceptance. A tolerant society is one that is deemed to have contrary values yet reluctantly allows contrary ways of existence to function through some lofty benevolence. It is divisive.

I love London, the creeds, colours, languages. It is a truly international city. But that is the tube, Oxford Street, high streets in the boroughs. But once folk have finished work many leave the tube stations at different exits. Somalis may go one way, South Asians another, and so on. I would suggest that integration in the UK is better than elsewhere, but when you have an inherited insular mindset (and this applies to folk of British ancestry as well as generation immigrants) there may at some stage be conflict down the line. The truth is we don't want to believe that for two reasons. One, the solution seems beyond us, and, two, we worry about the manifestation of extremism when such a discourse is had. No-one wants to see skinheads with Union Jacks claiming the moral high ground, no-one wants to see people chanting for a medieval system of governance based on outdated religious law. And that is why the divisions may get wider over time and power struggles go unchecked.

Most folk just want to live peacefully with a shared value of kindness and goodwill. That includes people of all races. I think the UK is pretty good at that. But for as long as there is no resolution of potential conflictions in the parts of society that are segregated, especially on the mainland in places like France, the extremists on all sides will continue to recruit. That is a worry as the decades roll by.

The time for that debate would have been way before now, because at this point whether you think the multi cultural society is positive or negative, the die is cast. There is no going back.

Therefore I think your point re pluralism is true, the political and wider establishment know this all to well hence we live in times where diversity and it’s benefits is a dogma that touches on every aspect of our lives.

This heavy handed approach is an engine of resentment; for many people in this country they will have witnessed huge change in their local environments and not seen any benefits, on the contrary they will see problems. These problems are ignored even when they manifest themselves, and at worst are shouted down by the diversity zealots.

Difficult to see where this will end up, and whether that’s good or bad........is it possible the U.K. will go the way of Yugoslavia or will it muddle through like the US with its ongoing schisms along racial/cultural lines.

How we go forward is the key.........dishonesty about diversity and tolerance just won’t cut it.

 

[GT49er]

Long term France is lost, soon to be followed by many other Western countries.

The demographics will eventually and inevitably determine that (probably in a couple of generations)

Once a Muslim political party is formed and gains traction in any of these countries then that is the start of the end game.

Appeasement never works. We're only delaying the inevitable violence that, sadly, will follow as some finally wake up and fight a rearguard action, which will then only escalate as more Islamofascists, aided by extremist Islamic states, come over to Europe to defend their outposts (as appears to be already happening - on a warped individual basis - judging by the fact that the Nice extremist was a recently arrived 'refugee' from Tunisia).

Unlike other religions that have settled peacefuly amongst us, Islam hates us, hates our values and doesn't even try to hide it, yet still we tolerate their extremists within our midst.

In the book "Black Swan" Talib Nassim described how Lebanon went from a multi faith, multicultural country to an Islamic nation, solely through an increase in population and subsequent political power.

I expect the formation of the British Islamic Party in the future.

Islam is only concerned with Islam. As much as we talk about inclusion, tolerance and diversity - as noble as these traits are - and the latest horrific, personal and no doubt physically difficult act, of beheading of a 70 year old woman with a knife, is pushed down the headlines, forgotten and described benignly with headlines such as 'Incident in Nice' in order not to upset or offend anyone, then we will eventually reap what we sow.

I would love to be proved wrong, but somehow I doubt I will be. What's the practical answer? I have no idea to be honest, but Macron should be supported in his tardy efforts to call out Islamic extremism for what it is and an honest and open conversation about one of the defining issues of our time (without resorting to name calling) would be a start.

Top post, and spot on. Islam is a threat, wherever it lands, because at the core of islam, whether moderate or murderous extremist, is that islam should be the only religion allowed.
For instance, somebody publishes an essentially inoffensive and primarily humorous cartoon of the 'prophet' Mohammed - and the response is, 'Kill them' ..... part of a civilised society? Sorry chum - got a long way to go yet. About 600 years behind Christianity, and a chunk more than that behind Judaism. Faults in all of them, and none without historical blame, but hopefully islam too will eventually grow up before committing too many more atrocities.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Long term France is lost, soon to be followed by many other Western countries.

The demographics will eventually and inevitably determine that (probably in a couple of generations)

Once a Muslim political party is formed and gains traction in any of these countries then that is the start of the end game.

Appeasement never works. We're only delaying the inevitable violence that, sadly, will follow as some finally wake up and fight a rearguard action, which will then only escalate as more Islamofascists, aided by extremist Islamic states, come over to Europe to defend their outposts (as appears to be already happening - on a warped individual basis - judging by the fact that the Nice extremist was a recently arrived 'refugee' from Tunisia).

Unlike other religions that have settled peacefuly amongst us, Islam hates us, hates our values and doesn't even try to hide it, yet still we tolerate their extremists within our midst.

In the book "Black Swan" Talib Nassim described how Lebanon went from a multi faith, multicultural country to an Islamic nation, solely through an increase in population and subsequent political power.

I expect the formation of the British Islamic Party in the future.

Islam is only concerned with Islam. As much as we talk about inclusion, tolerance and diversity - as noble as these traits are - and the latest horrific, personal and no doubt physically difficult act, of beheading of a 70 year old woman with a knife, is pushed down the headlines, forgotten and described benignly with headlines such as 'Incident in Nice' in order not to upset or offend anyone, then we will eventually reap what we sow.

I would love to be proved wrong, but somehow I doubt I will be. What's the practical answer? I have no idea to be honest, but Macron should be supported in his tardy efforts to call out Islamic extremism for what it is and an honest and open conversation about one of the defining issues of our time (without resorting to name calling) would be a start.

Wonderful post.

A very good friend of mine is a black immigrant professional health worker.

He has been expressing such concerns for many years, with the irony being he is often stereotyped as being Muslim despite being a staunch Christian.

 

[The Clamp]

Long term France is lost, soon to be followed by many other Western countries.

The demographics will eventually and inevitably determine that (probably in a couple of generations)

Once a Muslim political party is formed and gains traction in any of these countries then that is the start of the end game.

Appeasement never works. We're only delaying the inevitable violence that, sadly, will follow as some finally wake up and fight a rearguard action, which will then only escalate as more Islamofascists, aided by extremist Islamic states, come over to Europe to defend their outposts (as appears to be already happening - on a warped individual basis - judging by the fact that the Nice extremist was a recently arrived 'refugee' from Tunisia).

Unlike other religions that have settled peacefuly amongst us, Islam hates us, hates our values and doesn't even try to hide it, yet still we tolerate their extremists within our midst.

In the book "Black Swan" Talib Nassim described how Lebanon went from a multi faith, multicultural country to an Islamic nation, solely through an increase in population and subsequent political power.

I expect the formation of the British Islamic Party in the future.

Islam is only concerned with Islam. As much as we talk about inclusion, tolerance and diversity - as noble as these traits are - and the latest horrific, personal and no doubt physically difficult act, of beheading of a 70 year old woman with a knife, is pushed down the headlines, forgotten and described benignly with headlines such as 'Incident in Nice' in order not to upset or offend anyone, then we will eventually reap what we sow.

I would love to be proved wrong, but somehow I doubt I will be. What's the practical answer? I have no idea to be honest, but Macron should be supported in his tardy efforts to call out Islamic extremism for what it is and an honest and open conversation about one of the defining issues of our time (without resorting to name calling) would be a start.

You will be proved wrong. There is nowhere near enough of a majority in any western country for a Muslim party to gain any kind of traction.
Really, calm down.

 

[Is it PotG?]

You will be proved wrong. There is nowhere near enough of a majority in any western country for a Muslim party to gain any kind of traction.
Really, calm down.

Given the time span, none of us on here will be around to cock a snook and gloat 'I told you so'.