[News] Incident in Nice, France

[Is it PotG?]

Oh, I'm sorry, do you need me to provide a different source to back up my statement that the Crusades happened...?

No, ta anyway.

Just fail to see the relevance when we are supposed to be living in the 21st century where innocent folks do not get decapitated in the street 'just to level the score'.

 

[Swansman]

No, ta anyway.

Just fail to see the relevance when we are supposed to be living in the 21st century where innocent folks do not get decapitated in the street 'just to level the score'.

Why would the 21st century stop people from being crazy and violent?

 

[Is it PotG?]

Why would the 21st century stop people from being crazy and violent?

Have we not evolved into more understanding, tolerant people?

Sad if we have not.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But you DID get the Kamara pun?

Yeah, quality. Not at all obscura

 

[Swansman]

Have we not evolved into more understanding, tolerant people?

Sad if we have not.

Probably not as we still have desires, behaviours and traits that are useless and obsolete. Apart from the significant yet limited part of humanity you can change through changing culture etc, we're mostly like we were thousands of years ago... same creature. As long as this is the case - which it wont be for long tbf - the occasional madman will be doing shit like this - religion or no religion.

 

[Pavilionaire]

It will be interesting to see if this escalates. You'd expect some form of retaliation against the Muslim faith, one or two burning mosques or firebombed stores. Hopefully, the French people will show restraint under this extreme provocation.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Have we not evolved into more understanding, tolerant people?

Sad if we have not.

The evidence of looking to ban an entire religion here on this thread would suggest we have not. Maybe also give the Bear Pit a swerve for a while if you're looking for understanding tolerant people.

 

[NooBHA]

True enough, but I still find contemporary Islamic enthusiasts rather more scary than their Christian counterparts. Their belief systems may be equally bonkers, but these days you’re generally less likely to be blown up or have your head lopped off by a Jesus freak.

The so called God Fearing Christians in the Southern States of the US only recently been known to lynch, burn, skin alive and behead black men and women for misdemeanours such as not calling a white woman " Ma'am". - Only in this century. Can't remember the year was a young gay man dragged for 5 miles chained to the rear of a truck until his fresh was ripped to the bone because homosexuality contravened " Their Gods " teaching. So Christians are quite capable of barbarity even these days.

We don't refer to those acts as " Terrorism " but that's exactly what they are.

 

[Motogull]

It was probably what he wanted. Matyrdom, paradise, virgins etc. It's all part of the brainwashing process. Much better to deny him that and shove him in the worst prison in the country, for life, in with the nonces.

Or, drop him into a woodchipper with a pig. Seal the mess in concrete and drop it over the mariana trench. Film and broadcast the whole lot and say this is how these people will be treated. How many subsequent volunteers do you reckon?

 

[soistes]

The so called God Fearing Christians in the Southern States of the US only recently been known to lynch, burn, skin alive and behead black men and women for misdemeanours such as not calling a white woman " Ma'am". - Only in this century. Can't remember the year was a young gay man dragged for 5 miles chained to the rear of a truck until his fresh was ripped to the bone because homosexuality contravened " Their Gods " teaching. So Christians are quite capable of barbarity even these days.

We don't refer to those acts as " Terrorism " but that's exactly what they are.

I don’t disagree that Christianity also has a barbaric history (and Hindus and Buddhists are still up to all sorts of horrific stuff in different parts of the world, even now) so no religions are exempt from this kind of thing.
Specifically on some of your examples, though, I’m not sure that Christianity per se (rather than a simple white supremacist ideology) was cited as the rationale behind most of the atrocities against blacks in the southern US states (even if the perpetrators were Christian).

 

[NooBHA]

I don’t disagree that Christianity also has a barbaric history (and Hindus and Buddhists are still up to all sorts of horrific stuff in different parts of the world, even now) so no religions are exempt from this kind of thing.
Specifically on some of your examples, though, I’m not sure that Christianity per se (rather than a simple white supremacist ideology) was cited as the rational behind most of the atrocities against blacks in the southern US states (even if the perpetrators were Christian).

Ahhhhh. The I want to choose my own narrative syndrome.

I don't think your posts are actually vindictive in any way buddy. But the friends and family of the young gay lad might disagree with your assignation of what teachings led to the barbaric death of their friend/ son / brother.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

These folk 'wrong in the head' as is so eloquently described. Is it a chicken & egg scenario, where they are groomed from scratch or is it the influence of the specific religion nurtures such already innate tendencies?

That's a very good question. I suspect specific forms of religions attract specific kinds on mind sets. Betrand Russell analysed the emergence of religion as a source of comfort, through the promise of an afterlife, for miserable peasants (almost all of humanity at the time) living through starvation, serfdom/slavery and bad weather. The idea of an afterlife gives hope to those who have no hope. That promise will attract people with no hope. Once people cross the mental rubicon to a point where they no longer feel constrained by the instinctive horror of killing a fellow human, and no longer afraid to die, we have monsters.

At one time it was seen as perfectly acceptable to kill in the name of Christianity. The Crusades probably accomodated large numbers of nut cases who thought their salvation would be guaranteed by bathing in the blood of infidels. Russell wrote (long before the invention of the fatwa) that Islam was unusual among the religions for its civility and tolerance of other religions. That is now far from the truth in many places and sects.

Unfortunately in the modern era it is easy to hijack a religion for malign purposes, using the internet in the West, but the motivation is never devotion. What motivated Anjem Choudary? A love of god? He is an evil man preaching murder, whose preaching resulted in the murder of a soldier. What motivates self-styled Christians to murder hospital staff in America? A love of god? They claim it is their opposition to abortion. What motivated the Australian 'white supremacist' to murder 51 people in a mosque in New Zealand? A love of god? What motivated Anders Brevik to murder 77 of his own ethnic group including young socialists summer camp? Those examples have all moved a long way from Islam (and indeed any religion) but they all represent manifestations of the same thing as far as I can see - men crossing a mental rubicon into bestial depravity.

They are self-evidently all mad and bad by any definition, are they not? Is that sufficient explanation for their motivation? I suspect so. They latch onto whatever doctrine allows them to pursue their agenda, pick and choose whatever bits can be put into their narrative, and then off they go on their 'rightous' way, conviced they are right, expecting to be rewarded on earth or in heaven.

I wouldn't blame a sense of nationhood and fear of socialism for Brevik any more than I'd blame Jesus for the anti-abortionists or Islam for the beheaders. I don't like Islam, but that is primarily because I don't believe in god, or random doctrinaire imposition (a love of bacon sarnies and wine precludes any chance of my conversion to Islam, even if I do turn a little queer as I get older).

There were a couple of years ago 3,000 subjects of interest and 20,000 former subjects of interest on the security services watch list (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48185759). About half were 'Islamists' and the other half neo-Nazis. Two doctrines that can appeal strongly to the weak minded, damaged, foolish and nasty. What to do about it is another matter.

 

[soistes]

Ahhhhh. The I want to choose my own narrative syndrome.

I don't think your posts are actually vindictive in any way buddy. But the friends and family of the young gay lad might disagree with your assignation of what teachings led to the barbaric death of their friend/ son / brother.

You’re tilting at windmills mate.

I don’t really disagree with you that much and I certainly accept that Christianity has historically been responsible for a huge number of atrocities.

I have no knowledge of the gay killing you refer to, and that’s why I didn’t comment on it at all, so I don’t know why you make the jibe about what the victim’s relatives would think of me. You may well be right that there was such an event driven by Christian teaching - I’d never heard of it though.

I was explicitly referring to your other examples of lynchings and similar against black folk in the US which, as I understand it, were driven mainly by a KKK-type, white supremacist ideology rather than a specifically Christian one. Again if you have convincing evidence to the contrary, then I’d be happy to concede on that too.

Either way, I get the impression that, currently at least, while all religions retain their propensity to stimulate their followers to commit unjustifiable atrocities, militant Islam seems to be particularly scary on that front. Just my view, though, and if someone can produce the evidence that actually Islam is nothing compared to contemporary Christianity, Judaism, Taoism, Hinduism or whatever when it comes to terrorism and violence, I’ll revise that view. Until then I’ll retain my “Islamophobia”.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

I know it's been trotted out many times but it's still as true as ever

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Have we not evolved into more understanding, tolerant people?

Sad if we have not.

Another good point that [MENTION=38333]Swansman[/MENTION] answers well.

I would add that even though humans may not have evolved greatly, society has. There is a strong thread of tribalism in the human gene pool (albeit with a signigicant minority 'awkward squad' who don't fit in, many on the so-called 'spectrum' - I'm one of them) and this comes with an innate desire to fit in, so mass behaviour follows norms. The majority appear to see collaboration and co-operation as preferable to conquest. With collaboration and co-operation come feelings of comradeship and, yes, a sense of community and pleasure. We seem to like this, even if our primal urges sometimes make us want to smash someone's face in. We have learbed, in general, to keep these urges under control.

There again, those who cross a rubicon, using whatever doctrine to justify their stance, are now seen as an aberration and manace in society, and I doubt that these days there are many folk in the deep south who think it is fine and dandy to lynch black people. Some may get the urge to do a bit of lynching, for old time sake, but they understand the consequences (that include widespread disapproval as well as jail time) outweigh the benefit. And anyway, after that, with the passing of the decades, most white people will come (or even have come) to realise that blacks are not all savages any more than Catholics are all paedophiles and Brighton supporters are all 'shirt lifters'.

 

[McTavish]

I don’t disagree that Christianity also has a barbaric history (and Hindus and Buddhists are still up to all sorts of horrific stuff in different parts of the world, even now) so no religions are exempt from this kind of thing.
Specifically on some of your examples, though, I’m not sure that Christianity per se (rather than a simple white supremacist ideology) was cited as the rationale behind most of the atrocities against blacks in the southern US states (even if the perpetrators were Christian).

Probably best to ban white people and Christians just to be on the safe side.

 

[Icy Gull]

That's a very good question. I suspect specific forms of religions attract specific kinds on mind sets. Betrand Russell analysed the emergence of religion as a source of comfort, through the promise of an afterlife, for miserable peasants (almost all of humanity at the time) living through starvation, serfdom/slavery and bad weather. The idea of an afterlife gives hope to those who have no hope. That promise will attract people with no hope. Once people cross the mental rubicon to a point where they no longer feel constrained by the instinctive horror of killing a fellow human, and no longer afraid to die, we have monsters.

At one time it was seen as perfectly acceptable to kill in the name of Christianity. The Crusades probably accomodated large numbers of nut cases who thought their salvation would be guaranteed by bathing in the blood of infidels. Russell wrote (long before the invention of the fatwa) that Islam was unusual among the religions for its civility and tolerance of other religions. That is now far from the truth in many places and sects.

Unfortunately in the modern era it is easy to hijack a religion for malign purposes, using the internet in the West, but the motivation is never devotion. What motivated Anjem Choudary? A love of god? He is an evil man preaching murder, whose preaching resulted in the murder of a soldier. What motivates self-styled Christians to murder hospital staff in America? A love of god? They claim it is their opposition to abortion. What motivated the Australian 'white supremacist' to murder 51 people in a mosque in New Zealand? A love of god? What motivated Anders Brevik to murder 77 of his own ethnic group including young socialists summer camp? Those examples have all moved a long way from Islam (and indeed any religion) but they all represent manifestations of the same thing as far as I can see - men crossing a mental rubicon into bestial depravity.

They are self-evidently all mad and bad by any definition, are they not? Is that sufficient explanation for their motivation? I suspect so. They latch onto whatever doctrine allows them to pursue their agenda, pick and choose whatever bits can be put into their narrative, and then off they go on their 'rightous' way, conviced they are right, expecting to be rewarded on earth or in heaven.

I wouldn't blame a sense of nationhood and fear of socialism for Brevik any more than I'd blame Jesus for the anti-abortionists or Islam for the beheaders. I don't like Islam, but that is primarily because I don't believe in god, or random doctrinaire imposition (a love of bacon sarnies and wine precludes any chance of my conversion to Islam, even if I do turn a little queer as I get older).

There were a couple of years ago 3,000 subjects of interest and 20,000 former subjects of interest on the security services watch list (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48185759). About half were 'Islamists' and the other half neo-Nazis. Two doctrines that can appeal strongly to the weak minded, damaged, foolish and nasty. What to do about it is another matter.

Eloquent

 

[Live by the sea]

If you want to properly understand the unique problem militant Islam poses to Europe and beyond , I would highly recommend reading this book .


Radical
My Journey from Islamist Extremism to a Democratic Awakening
By: Maajid Nawaz

 

[amexer]

Appreciate only minority are extreme but would be disappointed if my daughter married a Muslim

 

[Bold Seagull]

Appreciate only minority are extreme but would be disappointed if my daughter married a Muslim

I'm sure both families could unite over the shared disappointment of who their offspring decided to fall in love with.