[Misc] IF there's a Christmas lockdown - would you comply?

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Agreed totally
But mask wearing on the concourse and public transport has been at a very low to almost non existent level so far
Let’s see if this changes ?

Would be just grand if the penny finally dropped, the club stopped paying lip-service to mask-wearing and the jolly boys realised they're putting their own family xmas gathering at risk as well as other families xmas gatherings.

As you say, let's see...

 

[Worried Man Blues]

Yes I'll follow the guidelines, because I do. You on the other hand

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I agree about mask wearing but we are a year down the vaccine line so the risk is far lower for Christmas gatherings. Besides that, I’m not sure what your post has to do with a Christmas lockdown?

Good point, well made. Have now also posted it somewhere more relevent. Tho part of it remains fairly relevent here ie. very many folks appear to be saying bolleaux to any attempt to put a limit on extended family gatherings. In the event that they get reintroduced, the definition of Support Bubbles is going to be stretched way beyond the levels of credibility in huge SWATHES of the population, with the inevitable consequences in early January

 

[The Clamp]

Good point, well made. Have now also posted it somewhere more relevent. Tho part of it remains fairly relevent here ie. very many folks appear to be saying bolleaux to any attempt to put a limit on extended family gatherings. In the event that they get reintroduced, the definition of Support Bubbles is going to be stretched way beyond the levels of credibility in huge SWATHES of the population, with the inevitable consequences in early January

I see what you mean. At some point though, we are going to have to make a decision;

Accept some vulnerable people will die, like they do of flu and various other diseases, open the world’s economies and let healthy people live normal lives.

or

Continue to impose questionably effective measure every time a new variant is found. Run back behind closed doors every winter, bankrupting 85% of the globe while making billionaires out of the rest (while our government laughs at us).


Only one of those is sustainable but we may have to become less squeamish about elderly people dying. Harsh. But true.

 

[Steve in Japan]

What does "living with the disease" actually mean?

The fear at the moment is the growth of Omicron is such that, even if it is milder, so many people will be severely ill at the same time that hospitals will be swamped. At that point you either turn those sick with Covid away or those with all manner of other ailments, including cancer and heart attacks etc, are turned away - there's simply no resources left to treat them.

So if that is a real concern (and whether you agree or not - please play along) - do you just let that play out, cross your fingers and hope for the best / least worst?

I'm not sure people dying slow agonising deaths in large numbers at home, because there is nowhere else for them to go, is "living with the disease" is it?

I'm not sure there are any easy answers from here, but I'm bloody glad I have no responsibility for trying to find one.

I don't know the answer either, but I do know that lockdowns are not tenable. They will ultimately make us all poorer and iller. So we need to define how we live as normal life as possible. We can't have that discussion at present because the media will not stop panicking and the Government is weak.

Deaths occurring at home are on the increase now and have been since the start of the pandemic. The majority due to non COVID illness (cancer, heart disease, stroke).

 

[The Clamp]

I don't know the answer either, but I do know that lockdowns are not tenable. They will ultimately make us all poorer and iller. So we need to define how we live as normal life as possible. We can't have that discussion at present because the media will not stop panicking and the Government is weak.

Deaths occurring at home are on the increase now and have been since the start of the pandemic. The majority due to non COVID illness (cancer, heart disease, stroke).

You are correct.

 

[Bozza]

I don't know the answer either, but I do know that lockdowns are not tenable. They will ultimately make us all poorer and iller. So we need to define how we live as normal life as possible. We can't have that discussion at present because the media will not stop panicking and the Government is weak.

Deaths occurring at home are on the increase now and have been since the start of the pandemic. The majority due to non COVID illness (cancer, heart disease, stroke).

...because Covid has put a massive strain on the healthcare system, and continues to do so.

All manner of bad things have happened, are happening and will happen BECAUSE of trying to deal with Covid. I'm not sure there's a magic wand that can be waved which will mean we can ignore the current c700 new people who need hospital care every day because of Covid, and live like we did in 2019.

But, as I've said before, the good news is we have an arsenal of tools to deal with this illness that we didn't have 20 months ago, with many more coming on stream all the time. Science will continue to work to make this thing an irrelevance in our lives. That time is not now. January into February has the potential to be horrific. Let's hope it doesn't come to that, but if it does, just hope that you and yours don't need hospital care, and spare a thought for those absolute heroes working in desperate conditions trying to keep people alive.

 

[Bozza]

I see what you mean. At some point though, we are going to have to make a decision;

Accept some vulnerable people will die, like they do of flu and various other diseases, open the world’s economies and let healthy people live normal lives.

or

Continue to impose questionably effective measure every time a new variant is found. Run back behind closed doors every winter, bankrupting 85% of the globe while making billionaires out of the rest (while our government laughs at us).


Only one of those is sustainable but we may have to become less squeamish about elderly people dying. Harsh. But true.

I'm not saying the whole thing again, but there's a massive range of options that lie between:

1. We need to just live like normal again, and
2. We're going to keep locking down for ever more.

Fortunately science is edging us towards 1. We can't just jump there today though.

 

[The Clamp]

I'm not saying the whole thing again, but there's a massive range of options that lie between:

1. We need to just live like normal again, and
2. We're going to keep locking down for ever more.

Fortunately science is edging us towards 1. We can't just jump there today though.

Our opinions differ.

 

[Bozza]

Our opinions differ.

You think science will make our outcomes with Covid worse?

Maybe check back to how we've improved outcomes for pretty much every disease we have come across, including the big-hitters like cancer, HIV and the like.

 

[NooBHA]

If I am honest - I find Christmas a bit boring nowadays anyhow - Everywhere is usually shut and I never drink alcohol at home - So unless I get invited to an Un-Socially Distanced cheese and wine party at Downing Street, you can stick Christmas Up Yer arse

 

[The Clamp]

You think science will make our outcomes with Covid worse?

Maybe check back to how we've improved outcomes for pretty much every disease we have come across, including the big-hitters like cancer, HIV and the like.

I didn’t explain very well. You’ve read it as I mean eternal lockdowns forever more. If you read what I’ve written I’ve said questionably effective measures and winter lockdowns. A range of measures forever more, as it were.

Yep, we have improved outcomes for many diseases, inarguably. However, for the vast majority of the global population, all we actually need is a vaccine. Then we can get on with our lives. For now, until the outcomes are improved that would mean accepting some people are going to die. That’s a hard thing to do but the way we live now cannot go on for much longer.

We cannot keep basing our lives on “suggested models” and “estimates”, the direction scientists are currently steering us.

As I’ve said before I think this boils down to scientists and advisors hedging their bets and people being afraid to re-join the world.

Again, there was no furlough for many of us. Many of us didn’t have the luxury of getting paid to sit at home, tweeting how hard home schooling is. Some of us had to get on with it. That’s possibly why most people I know that had to work through don’t have anxiety about things returning to normal.

We have to accept that normality now comes at a cost.

As with anything of this nature, I am well aware I could be proved wrong in the fullness of time and as always, I admit when I know I’m wrong.

This has to stop. Trust the vaccines. Endure the price of normality.

 

[Bozza]

I didn’t explain very well. You’ve read it as I mean eternal lockdowns forever more. If you read what I’ve written I’ve said questionably effective measures and winter lockdowns. A range of measures forever more, as it were.

Yep, we have improved outcomes for many diseases, inarguably. However, for the vast majority of the global population, all we actually need is a vaccine. Then we can get on with our lives. For now, until the outcomes are improved that would mean accepting some people are going to die. That’s a hard thing to do but the way we live now cannot go on for much longer.

We cannot keep basing our lives on “suggested models” and “estimates”, the direction scientists are currently steering us.

As I’ve said before I think this boils down to scientists and advisors hedging their bets and people being afraid to re-join the world.

Again, there was no furlough for many of us. Many of us didn’t have the luxury of getting paid to sit at home, tweeting how hard home schooling is. Some of us had to get on with it. That’s possibly why most people I know that had to work through don’t have anxiety about things returning to normal.

We have to accept that normality now comes at a cost.

As with anything of this nature, I am well aware I could be proved wrong in the fullness of time and as always, I admit when I know I’m wrong.

This has to stop. Trust the vaccines. Endure the price of normality.

We do trust the vaccines - they are amazing!

The problem is not enough people have had them, and by that I don't mean just the "I'll trust my immune system" crowd, it's the tens of millions waiting for their boosters. Omicron has arrived at a bad time in our vaccine programme and its transmissibility means we have no chance of winning the race. We're sticking as many boosters in arms as we possibly can, but we can't outpace Omicron's spread meaning a lot of susceptible people.

And we get back to a small percentage of a very big number is still a big number.

We won't have to wait long to see how this plays out though. By mid-February the worst of this wave, and whatever it brings, should be behind us whether we impose further restrictions or not.

 

[Jeremiah]

Why would anyone not comply with a lockdown - unless they didn't care a jot about others ?

 

[The Clamp]

We do trust the vaccines - they are amazing!

The problem is not enough people have had them, and by that I don't mean just the "I'll trust my immune system" crowd, it's the tens of millions waiting for their boosters. Omicron has arrived at a bad time in our vaccine programme and its transmissibility means we have no chance of winning the race. We're sticking as many boosters in arms as we possibly can, but we can't outpace Omicron's spread meaning a lot of susceptible people.

And we get back to a small percentage of a very big number is still a big number.

We won't have to wait long to see how this plays out though. By mid-February the worst of this wave, and whatever it brings, should be behind us whether we impose further restrictions or not.

Yes. However, there are only so many “wait and see”’s our economy can survive. Not to mention those with cancer and other medical needs with potentially long lives ahead of them that are being sidelined in order to minimally prolong the lives of 90 year olds with Covid.

 

[The Clamp]

Why would anyone not comply with a lockdown - unless they didn't care a jot about others ?

Lockdown for the unvaccinated and vulnerable. I can get behind that. There is absolutely no need whatsoever to put healthy people into lockdown.

 

[Eeyore]

This is about saving lives.

If folk want to make points, stick two fingers up and potentially harm loved ones it's up to them.

It's presented as being about saving lives.

The death rate, especially now, is relatively low for Covid, Or should I say, palatable to the general public. In other words, folk are used to it now. A sad by-product of existence.

But the way the government present things should not be taken at face value.

They are scared that the NHS could be overrun quickly. They are scared that a huge wave could cause economic problems. But they are also worried about their own popularity.

The Covid decisions moved on a long time ago from being about 'saving lives'. Once the government establish a level of death that the public will put up with they know their wiggle room. And that is the crude reality.

The truth is also that until this current regime replaces the mocking clowns at the top with MPs of integrity, and there are some, the wider public will be giving the '**** you'

 

[portslade seagull]

Yes, you have to be seen to be doing the right thing even if our leaders find it impossible to follow who impose it

 

[The Clamp]

The aim of a lockdown is to reduce case numbers, not to protect people directly.

I mean this with some respect but you refuse to get vaccinated, citing your supposed immunity as the reason. For me at least, that kind of renders any opinion you have about the subject, redundant. You and those who think like you have extended the pandemic. I’m afraid I have no tuning but utter contempt for those refusing the vaccine.

To address your incorrect point though, Vaccinated people won’t spread Covid to other vaccinated people. So, compulsory lockdown for unvaccinated people and perhaps voluntary for the vulnerable if they feel at risk. Voluntary if they are vaccinated of course.

 

[The Clamp]

I fully expects a lockdown for the unvaccinated, or at least stringent sanction on their movements, by January.