Leekbrookgull
Well-known member
Did not see that one coming. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18900484
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Ian Tomlinson case. PC Harwood Not Guilty.
- Thread starter Leekbrookgull
- Start date
Presumably the jury could not identify a single action (ie being hit with the truncheon) to be the cause of death. agreed that he did not need to be hit with a baton but seems he was hardly a fine specimen of healthy living.........................................
From the BBC Father-of-nine Mr Tomlinson, who was a heavy drinker who had slept rough for a number of years, walked 75 yards before he collapsed
From the BBC Father-of-nine Mr Tomlinson, who was a heavy drinker who had slept rough for a number of years, walked 75 yards before he collapsed
Gullys Cats
Sausage by the sea!!!
How has he got away with that!.
Cadiz Seagull
Grey bearded old man
Seems a strange veredict to me, admittedly based only what I have seen on the box.
He was walking away, the policemen pushed him from behind, clearly not self defence. The policemen admitted he shouldn't have pushed him and wouldn't have if he had realised he was walking away.
If I push someone over in the street and they die as a direct cause of my action then surely that's manslaughter?
He was walking away, the policemen pushed him from behind, clearly not self defence. The policemen admitted he shouldn't have pushed him and wouldn't have if he had realised he was walking away.
If I push someone over in the street and they die as a direct cause of my action then surely that's manslaughter?
Hotchilidog
Well-known member
- Jan 24, 2009
- 9,136
This! Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case, it definitely looks like one law for us and one for the police.
gripper stebson
Well-known member
- Jul 27, 2004
- 6,691
vegster
Sanity Clause
- May 5, 2008
- 28,274
Add to that the fact that the bloke was walking away with his hands in his pockets ..... away from a line of well protected and well armed, ( riot sticks ) and, allegedly well trained police officers.
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
Involuntry manslaughter as the pig prob didn't intend to kill in the heat of the moment. A bit like the huntsman who got of when videoed whipping a hunt sab in the face, insufficiant evidence. Nice to know who your mates are, funny handshakes and all that.
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
- Jul 7, 2003
- 47,644
Would be interesting to hear (though we never will) the jury's deliberations on this one.
While I thought Harwood would probably be found guilty, I've enough experience of the judicial system to know how these things can sometimes go. We've all seen cases where its hard to believe the verdict. I always wondered if the causal link between the action and the outcome might just be an issue here. Principally on this basis: if the victim had been a healthy adult, with no adverse medical history, then it would have been hard to argue that a sudden bleed could have been caused by anything other than blunt trauma (ie the fall). But chronic alcoholics are very prone to internal bleeds, sometimes for no apparent reason. So I can only assume that Harwood's defence was based to a degree on this, ie that it cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt that what he did was a cause (even if only a partial cause) of death.
I fully anticipate a lot of public anger about the legal system now, but it's twelve jurors that have acquitted him, not a state-employed magistrate or government appointed enquiry panel.
While I thought Harwood would probably be found guilty, I've enough experience of the judicial system to know how these things can sometimes go. We've all seen cases where its hard to believe the verdict. I always wondered if the causal link between the action and the outcome might just be an issue here. Principally on this basis: if the victim had been a healthy adult, with no adverse medical history, then it would have been hard to argue that a sudden bleed could have been caused by anything other than blunt trauma (ie the fall). But chronic alcoholics are very prone to internal bleeds, sometimes for no apparent reason. So I can only assume that Harwood's defence was based to a degree on this, ie that it cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt that what he did was a cause (even if only a partial cause) of death.
I fully anticipate a lot of public anger about the legal system now, but it's twelve jurors that have acquitted him, not a state-employed magistrate or government appointed enquiry panel.
Hillian1
( . ) ( . )
n1 gull
Well-known member
The copper sounds like a right w*nker. How he got away with that
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
Closer, but not quite.
gripper stebson
Well-known member
- Jul 27, 2004
- 6,691
Not really.
Wasn't a dig. Just don't hear the word 'pigs' used very often these day. Neil was the first thing that came into my head!!
Harwood sounds like a first-class copper.
Unbelievable. Actually, no, par for the course; entirely believable and predictable.
The police are literally are a law unto themselves.
I know some individual coppers are decent (our very own Edna K. for example), but as an institution, I can't respect or trust them; they seem to get away with far too many things that the rest of us would (rightly) be locked-up for.
This decision disgusts me, but, sadly, it doesn't surprise me.
The police are literally are a law unto themselves.
I know some individual coppers are decent (our very own Edna K. for example), but as an institution, I can't respect or trust them; they seem to get away with far too many things that the rest of us would (rightly) be locked-up for.
This decision disgusts me, but, sadly, it doesn't surprise me.
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
Cant see how the mans health is an issue. did the judge direct the jury to a verdict?
User removed 4
New member
Seems the jury have gone with the medical "evidence" that it can't be connected with the blow to him from the copper and his later "heart attack".
Neither jury heard details of Harwood's prior disciplinary record, which can only be reported now. This includes how he quit the Met on health grounds in 2001 shortly before a planned disciplinary hearing into claims he illegally tried to arrest a driver following a road rage incident while off duty, altering his notes to retrospectively justify the actions. Harwood was nonetheless able to join another force, Surrey, before returning to serve with the Met in 2005.He allegedly punched, throttled, kneed or threatened other suspects while in uniform in other alleged incidents."
In 2000, five years after he joined the Met, PC Harwood was involved in what was described at the inquest as a "road rage" incident. He was off-duty at the time and the other driver complained of unlawful arrest and abuse of authority,PC Harwood denied the accusation but the Met wanted him to face a disciplinary hearing. However, the following year he retired on medical grounds before it took place. As a result, there was never a finding. An earlier and separate allegation of assault against the officer also went unsubstantiated.
Three days after his medical retirement, he became a civilian member of police staff in Croydon. Then, in 2003, he successfully reapplied to become a constable with Surrey.
While he was at Surrey, there was a further unsubstantiated complaint that he had used excessive force in a raid, allegedly punching a man twice in the face.
In late 2004, PC Harwood rejoined the Metropolitan Police. Scotland Yard's vetting unit had considered the road rage incident but the coroner was told it had not reviewed the full file.
The coroner heard that PC Harwood had been the subject of seven more complaints following rejoining the Met, three of which were against him alone. Two were allegations of improper force.
The third complaint was of improper use of the Police National Computer to check up on a driver involved in an accident with his wife. Ian Tomlinson's coroner was told that the officer had received a written warning In all, Pc Harwood was the subject of 10 complaints over 12 years, but only the PNC incident was found against him.
A spokesman for Surrey Police told the BBC that when Harwood asked to join the force, the Met told it that there had been a "previous misconduct investigation" but no further action had been taken. He's a typical bully boy copper, and should be in a cell, if the situation were reversed, tomlinson would be, instead hes in a box.
Neither jury heard details of Harwood's prior disciplinary record, which can only be reported now. This includes how he quit the Met on health grounds in 2001 shortly before a planned disciplinary hearing into claims he illegally tried to arrest a driver following a road rage incident while off duty, altering his notes to retrospectively justify the actions. Harwood was nonetheless able to join another force, Surrey, before returning to serve with the Met in 2005.He allegedly punched, throttled, kneed or threatened other suspects while in uniform in other alleged incidents."
In 2000, five years after he joined the Met, PC Harwood was involved in what was described at the inquest as a "road rage" incident. He was off-duty at the time and the other driver complained of unlawful arrest and abuse of authority,PC Harwood denied the accusation but the Met wanted him to face a disciplinary hearing. However, the following year he retired on medical grounds before it took place. As a result, there was never a finding. An earlier and separate allegation of assault against the officer also went unsubstantiated.
Three days after his medical retirement, he became a civilian member of police staff in Croydon. Then, in 2003, he successfully reapplied to become a constable with Surrey.
While he was at Surrey, there was a further unsubstantiated complaint that he had used excessive force in a raid, allegedly punching a man twice in the face.
In late 2004, PC Harwood rejoined the Metropolitan Police. Scotland Yard's vetting unit had considered the road rage incident but the coroner was told it had not reviewed the full file.
The coroner heard that PC Harwood had been the subject of seven more complaints following rejoining the Met, three of which were against him alone. Two were allegations of improper force.
The third complaint was of improper use of the Police National Computer to check up on a driver involved in an accident with his wife. Ian Tomlinson's coroner was told that the officer had received a written warning In all, Pc Harwood was the subject of 10 complaints over 12 years, but only the PNC incident was found against him.
A spokesman for Surrey Police told the BBC that when Harwood asked to join the force, the Met told it that there had been a "previous misconduct investigation" but no further action had been taken. He's a typical bully boy copper, and should be in a cell, if the situation were reversed, tomlinson would be, instead hes in a box.