[Travel] HS2 to be scrapped?

[The Clamp]

Have they perhaps given all our money away to their chums and have none left to spend on improvements?

Well, of course they have.

I expect they’ll raid our pension pots before being booted out in 2024.

Oh. I was correct.

 

[Dave the hatosaurus]

It was over 4 years actually.
Feb 2019 to April 23.

Then a short while after it was supposedly finished it went down to one lane again for a time causing more long delays. I do not know the reason but would hazard a guess it was something that was either an afterthought or a correction of a previous error.

 

[clapham_gull]

The Conservatives have always been ambivalent towards public transport.

I think many MPs wake up some morning thinking it's a terribly left wing thing.

Deep in their thinking over the last 13 years has been those who don't use it shouldn't "subsidise" it.

A bizarre nod to their commuters of choice - the car owner... and before someone mentions it "road tax" was abolished in 1937.

Well if we all stopped paying taxes for the "things we don't use", the country would collapse.

 

[The Clamp]

The Conservatives have always been ambivalent towards public transport.

I think many MPs wake up some morning thinking it's a terribly left wing thing.

Deep in their thinking over the last 13 years has been those who don't use it shouldn't "subsidise" it.

A bizarre nod to their commuters of choice - the car owner... and before someone mentions it "road tax" was abolished in 1937.

Well if we all stopped paying taxes for the "things we don't use", the country would collapse.

They've been used to being driven around since the driver dropped them off to Eton on a Sunday night. Rishi "helicopter to the chippy" Sunak probably hasn't stepped foot on a train since he alighted the Hogwarts Express. If he's going up North, it's in a private jet and he'll try not to talk to anyone Northern if he can absolutely help it.

 

[RexCathedra]

By Clackett Lane?

Dallas area, Texas.

 

[Weststander]

Lots of countries do a better job of central planning than the UK. Its possible to do such things without 'living in China'

He’s referring to if we; bypassed nimby councils and snapped up private homes/gardens/farmland at will, quickly.

The Chinese model.

 

[Weststander]

I’m in partial agreement with you, we’ve done less than the minimum to expand/upgrade the rail network, though am left wondering if the French are fast at building infrastructure or not? They sounded it from your first post, but now the difference is that they started in 1976.

Regardless it sounds as if any major infrastructure projects require nationalised or at least tightly controlled industries coupled with central control of the projects, rather than the dogs dinner of fragmented and privatised ownership we have here today.

I am personally less keen on new roads than rail projects, but as somebody else drily pointed out above, it’s pretty irrelevant in the U.K. because people can’t afford train travel. Private motoring (or even flying) is the cost-effective option over distance, which suggests a colossal leak of taxpayers money going into the infrastructure firms bidding on these projects.

I say this as somebody living in a part of the U.K. that effectively closes every time there’s a crash on the M4. I would love our railways to be reliable and affordable. That isn’t currently the case.

Both. They started in 1976, got on with it, moving onto the next and next. It’s very imperfect though. A NSC’er who lives in France said the non-TGV railways are in a shockingly bad state, train journeys at a snails pace, I’ve been on them and suffered the tedium. This is confirmed in several good articles on the internet.

I’m kind of centre-right on some economic viewpoints, but agree. What exactly is the point of Gatwick Express, Southern, SE, Thameslink and Railtrack in our region? A clusterf@ck. One company, tickets you can use from any London Station …. that’s sensible. I’m not ideological as to whether its private or state owned. But everyone should remember that BR also had endless strikes including under Labour, pay disputes, cancellations, excuses about leaves or fine snow, furious commuters who hated the railway staff.

It would be fantastic if we had modern tram systems in conurbations like Brighton, more train routes, faster times between cities.

That plus subsidising fares would take many more £10b’s a year, ad infinitum. The railway operators profits/dividends are minute as a proportion of ticket income.

 

[Bakero]

To be fair other countries have their cock ups too.

Spain has wasted billions / gone over budget on a number of infrastructure projects, municipal buildings and that famous disused airport.

Cock ups is a funny way to spell corruption.

Venal politicians, avaricious businessmen and shedloads of cash is a heady mix.

In Spain's case, increased EU oversight, along with a number of high profile corruption scandals in past decades, seems to have improved things markedly. Still, whenever there are billion-dollar contracts kicking around, someone's going to make a killing.

 

[BrightonCottager]

A few small sacrifices well worth it for the wider benefit of the country then.

Boo f***ing hoo to your bridge over the M25 being shut for a couple of years. Should we just never do anything any more as a country because someone somewhere might have to put up with a bit of noise now and then? Embarrassing.

Actually, I agree with your general point. In the same way we should be taxing motorists (Inc electric vehicle drivers) a lot more through road pricing, banning internal flights and forcing reallocation of roadspace and priorities in favour of public transport, cycling and walking. And that's just some of the things we should be doing on transport. HS2 has been badly planned and implemented from day 1.

 

[clapham_gull]

Cock ups is a funny way to spell corruption.

Venal politicians, avaricious businessmen and shedloads of cash is a heady mix.

In Spain's case, increased EU oversight, along with a number of high profile corruption scandals in past decades, seems to have improved things markedly. Still, whenever there are billion-dollar contracts kicking around, someone's going to make a killing.

I love a good Spanish over spend. One of my favourite places to have a chilled glass of wine is under that mushroom in Seville.

 

[A1X]

excuses about leaves or fine snow

Without wishing to derail (sorry) the thread, these weren’t excuses but genuine reasons for issues. Fine snow got sucked into the traction motors of old EMU stock and caused them to fail, and leaves create a slippery film on railheads preventing adhesion.

Both now largely negated due to advances in technology, but not completely. The recent train crash at Salisbury was blamed by the RAIB on track conditions caused by leaves on the line (and the apparent failure to clear them).

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Both. They started in 1976, got on with it, moving onto the next and next. It’s very imperfect though. A NSC’er who lives in France said the non-TGV railways are in a shockingly bad state, train journeys at a snails pace, I’ve been on them and suffered the tedium. This is confirmed in several good articles on the internet.

I’m kind of centre-right on some economic viewpoints, but agree. What exactly is the point of Gatwick Express, Southern, SE, Thameslink and Railtrack in our region? A clusterf@ck. One company, tickets you can use from any London Station …. that’s sensible. I’m not ideological as to whether its private or state owned. But everyone should remember that BR also had endless strikes including under Labour, pay disputes, cancellations, excuses about leaves or fine snow, furious commuters who hated the railway staff.

It would be fantastic if we had modern tram systems in conurbations like Brighton, more train routes, faster times between cities.

That plus subsidising fares would take many more £10b’s a year, ad infinitum. The railway operators profits/dividends are minute as a proportion of ticket income.

Well argued.

If you think about it, a national transport system designed to swiftly and comfortably get workers to work, so they are in the best possible state to work and make money for capitalists (of which I am fully supportive) requires a nationalized integrated system with a clear rubric for ensuring standards are monitored and maintained.

In other words, socialism. Like the NHS, the police and the army are supposed to be (albeit those running some of these enterprises have got out of control).

Franchising bits of it out and allowing people to monetize it (like the 'fast bit' on the M6, the Dartford crossing, etc.) is madness.

And down my way we have had no working toilets on many trains, often, for the last 6 years or so (long before Covid) owing to a pettyfogging dispute over safety (trains are often left to be cleaned where the minimum wage cleaners have to walk across live rails to get access, and they refuse to do so. Not exactly one of the greatest unresolvable challenges to Industrial Relations) that the owners cannot be bothered to fix. The present owners are the government, after the French company vacuumed all the Covid subsidies then f***ed off. If anything signals the tories do not give a shit about public transport, this is it. Their present solution is to sack all the station staff and replace them with ticket machines and more barriers. The wankers.

 

[Cowfold Seagull]

For HS2 read TSR2.

 

[Bakero]

 

[clapham_gull]

Sky saying scrapped.

Northern leg of HS2 to Manchester will be scrapped

After weeks of speculation, the high-speed rail line between Birmingham and Manchester is set to be shelved, Sky News understands - although Number 10 has said "no final decisions have been taken".

news.sky.com

 

[Weststander]

Veteran Guardian journalist Simon Jenkins in a long radio interview, was surprisingly against the entire HS2 project. His rationale made sense. If capacity was the real reason, for a small country why did it have to have TGV/bullet train speeds, at a cost of £100b. It won’t take hardly any cars off the road. It won’t level up, if anything London will gain again. Why not spend a far smaller sum on improving train networks across the north?

 

[AmexRuislip]

A few small sacrifices well worth it for the wider benefit of the country then.

Boo f***ing hoo to your bridge over the M25 being shut for a couple of years. Should we just never do anything any more as a country because someone somewhere might have to put up with a bit of noise now and then? Embarrassing.

I'm all for advancement for the greater good.
But yr comments of boo hoo, putting up with a bit of noise don't really work, if yr not in amongst it.
As I've already mentioned, I'm a mile from the HS2 development and the noise and lorry traffic ain't funny.
Constant road closures also add to the shit show that is HS2.
Just my opinion.

 

[A1X]

Veteran Guardian journalist Simon Jenkins in a long radio interview, was surprisingly against the entire HS2 project. His rationale made sense. If capacity was the real reason, for a small country why did it have to have TGV/bullet train speeds, at a cost of £100b. It won’t take hardly any cars off the road. It won’t level up, if anything London will gain again. Why not spend a far smaller sum on improving train networks across the north?

Jenkins has been talking utter shite about HS2 for nearly 15 years, good to see some things never change.

 

[beorhthelm]

Veteran Guardian journalist Simon Jenkins in a long radio interview, was surprisingly against the entire HS2 project. His rationale made sense. If capacity was the real reason, for a small country why did it have to have TGV/bullet train speeds, at a cost of £100b. It won’t take hard any cars off the road. It won’t level up, if anything London will gain again. Why not spend a far smaller sum on improving train networks across the north?

of course Simon Jenkins is opposed, has been forever. he's King Nimby and would be against new links between northern towns too, probably anti upgrades without a rewilding programme. he knows you dont get a special budget for "improve the old track" outside the regular spending, and there's no rational case rail gets cars off the road.

 

[A1X]

Sky saying scrapped.

Northern leg of HS2 to Manchester will be scrapped

After weeks of speculation, the high-speed rail line between Birmingham and Manchester is set to be shelved, Sky News understands - although Number 10 has said "no final decisions have been taken".

news.sky.com