I'm sure we can convert them to western society by showing them a few of our women's gossip mags and a speech by octumum
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How Many More Brave Squadies Have To Suffer This Crap Til We Admit Defeat?
- Thread starter Tom Hark Preston Park
- Start date
I'm sure we can convert them to western society by showing them a few of our women's gossip mags and a speech by octumum
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 73,162
- Thread starter
- #22
Two Professors
Two Mad Professors
Nukes never used in Vietnam! DOHH
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 73,162
- Thread starter
- #24
Nukes never used in Vietnam! DOHH
No idea what W80 is (til I looked it up on wikipedia about eight seconds ago). Don't even have a Playstation
Sort of somehow just KNEW - call it a sixth sense - that you were advocating visiting death on untold thousands of innocent people tho. Like I say, that ALWAYS works 
What is needed is a multi-national force of at least a million soldiers, backed up by strong air power. We should then hit the key Taliban strongholds in a short, sharp, devastating show of raw fire power. Take the ragheads out once and for all and seal the border with Pakistan beforehand to stop them escaping over the border. Maniacs, the lot of them; the world would be a far better place without them.
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If devastating fire power alone could win wars then the US would never have any problems. But it's not that simple.
You can't easily "seal the border" with Pakistan - how do you seal off huge mountain ranges?(no one even agrees on where the border is or indeed if there is one).
And throwing words like "ragheads" around is pretty unhelpful. Both Taliban and non-Taliban Afghanis often wear hats or headscarves so "taking them out" would be a bit indiscriminate wouldn't it? There are certainly some bad bastards out there who want to impose an Islamic regime by violence and they need to be stood up to. But you can't just blow them away - it doesn't work like that.
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
See your ready to swallow propoganda then.
The only figures not released, as with Iraq, is the number of enemy combatant fatalities. Which allows cowards, traitors and self hating leftists to start whining.
The kill Ratio is estimated at over 500 to 1 in Iraq and afghanistan, this rises to over 800 with air support.
If you want to make a comparison with Veitnam a much tougher terrain the kill ratio was 19 to 1. The US didn't lose a battle even during the Tet offensive.
It was the antics of bullshitters like Walter Kronkite and Hanoi Jane that helped lose public confidence and encouraged the North Vietnamese to hang on who suffered over 900,000 enemy combatant casualties, the US lost 55,000.
Are you serious? The US lost the Vietnam war becasue of Walter Cronkite and Jane Fonda?!
Mr Burns
New member
looney
Banned
- Jul 7, 2003
- 15,652
Well, I won't argue about the importance of public opinion. But they gave it what - 12-14 years - without getting the result they wanted.
And here's another thing that may have sapped public support more than Walter and Jane - the widespread knowledge that most of the privileged kids (like George W) were dodging the action.
But surely the casualty figures you quote are actually an argument for the impossibility of the US and its allies winning an overseas war like Vietnam/Afghanistan in the long-term? In their own country, people will fight and die in huge numbers that not even the American military machine can outlast. I'm a reluctant supporter of continuing action in Afghanistan but I despair that the US doesn't learn the lessons of recent history.
brightonbluenose
New member
- May 6, 2006
- 174
Interestingly the Afghani female parliamentarian Malalai Joya, who stood up to and denounced the warlords in the Afghan assembly and now has a price on her head for her murder, says that outside forces should leave the country and allow ordinary Afghans to achieve democracy under their own steam and in their own time - even if it takes years!
Her point is that it is an Afghan internal problem and f*** all to do with anyone else!!
Of course this doesnt take account of Western concerns re terrorism, regional instability, opium/ heroin production etc etc.
Link to Malailas supporters website is: http://www.malalaijoya.com/index1024.htm
Never go up against a sicilian when death is on the line!
User removed 4
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I agree 100 per cent, but anyone who says this war is unwinnable is wrong , people keep referring to the fact that the russians couldn't win it, that's because the mujahideen were being armed and equipped with anything they wanted by the americans, that is not the case now, give our blokes the correct tools to do the job and they will win.
The Ringleader
Banned
Lord Bracknell
On fire
From Catch 22 by Joseph Heller:-
"America," he said, "will lose the war. And Italy will win it."
"America is the strongest and most prosperous nation on earth," Nately informed him with lofty fervor and dignity. "And the American fighting man is second to none."
"Exactly," agreed the old man pleasantly, with a hint of taunting amusement. "Italy, on the other hand, is one of the least prosperous nations on earth. And the Italian fighting man is probably second to all. And that's exactly why my country is doing so well in this war while your country is doing so poorly."
"I'm sorry I laughed at you. But Italy was occupied by the Germans and is now being occupied by us. You don't call that doing very well, do you?"
"But of course I do," exclaimed the old man cheerfully. "The Germans are being driven out, and we're still here. In a few years, you will be gone, too, and we will still be here. You see, Italy is really a very poor and weak country, and that's what makes us so strong. Italian soldiers are not dying anymore. But American and German soldiers are. I call that doing extremely well. Yes, I'm quite certain Italy will survive this war and still be in existence long after your own country has been destroyed."
"America is not going to be destroyed!" he shouted passionately.
"Never?" prodded the old man softly.
"Well..." Nately faltered.
"Rome was destroyed, Greece was destroyed, Persia was destroyed, Spain was destroyed. All great countries are destroyed. Why not yours? How much longer do you really think your own country will last? Forever? Keep in mind that the earth itself is destined to be destroyed by the sun in twenty-five million years or so."
"I don't believe anything you tell me," Nately replied... "The only thing I do believe is that America is going to win the war."
"You put so much stock in winning wars. The real trick lies in losing wars, in knowing which wars can be lost. Italy has been losing wars for centuries, and just see how splendidly we've done nonetheless. France wins wars and is in a continual state of crisis. Germany loses and prospers. Look at our recent history. Italy won a war in Ethiopia and promptly stumbled into serious trouble. Victory gave us such insane delusions of grandeur that we helped start a world war we hadn't a chance of winning. But now that we are losing again, everything has taken a turn for the better and we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated."
Nately gaped at him in undisguised befuddlement. "Now I really don't understand what you're saying. You talk like a madman."
"But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top, and I am anti-fascist now that he has been deposed. I was fanatically pro-German when the Germans were here to protect us against the Americans, and now that the Americans are here to protect us against the Germans I am fanatically pro-American...When the Germans marched into the city, I danced in the streets like a ballerina and shouted `Heil Hitler!'... When the Germans left the city, I rushed out to welcome the Americans with a bottle of excellent brandy and a basket of flowers. The brandy was for myself, of course, and the flowers were to sprinkle upon our liberators... ".
"There is nothing so absurd about risking your life for your country," Nately declared.
"Isn't there?" asked the old man. "What is a country? A country is a piece of land surrounded on all sides by boundaries, usually unnatural. Englishmen are dying for England. Americans are dying for America. Germans are dying for Germany. Russians are dying for Russia. There are now fifty or sixty countries fighting in this war. Sure so many countries can't all be worth dying for."
"Anything worth living for," Nately said, "is worth dying for."
"And anything worth dying for," answered the sacrilegious old man, "is certainly worth living for. Why don't you use some sense and try to be more like me? You might live to be a hundred and seven too."
"Because it's better to die on one's feet than live on one's knees. I guess you're heard that saying before."
"Yes I certainly have," mused the treacherous old man, smiling again. "But I'm afraid you have it backward. It is better to live on one's feet than die on one's knees. That is the way the saying goes.
"Are you sure?" Nately asked with sober confusion. "It seems to make more sense my way."
"No, it makes more sense my way..."
I don't think the 'unwinnable' comment is about how well they are armed. It's about what motivates them to keep fighting and what it will take to end the war.
Many historians think that once the american war of independence started there was no way we'd win. They were fighting for their home and their freedom, we were fighting for a colony. If we wiped out all the rebellions, we'd've turned our american-based supporters against us and they'd've taken up arms against us. We eventually have to wipe out the entire population. Which would leave us with an empty land, a decimated army, and vulnerable to attack from the french and spanish who would definitely try to attack us to avenge their own recent defeats.
With Afghanistan, we'd have to wipe out the taliban, which would incite some of their family and friend who were previously inactive to take up arms against us, fighting with whatever they had. Until eventually we wipe out all the Afghani people. But that would then lead to inciting other middle eastern peoples, and the war will continue.
And if we keep wiping out country after country, then our friends will turn on us, we will turn on ourselves. Everyone loses.
If we're talking about the war on terrorism being unwinnable it becomes even more obvious. If we manage to kill and by our brute force scare all the terrorists in the world into stopping their actions that makes us the terrorists. We are scaring them from living how they will, scaring people (not just terrorists, but regular people as well) into subservience (probably not traditional terrorism, more tyranny, I guess.)
For someone who's pent the last two years in Afghanistan, I can assure you that for every British soldier killed there's at least twenty Talibs dead. That's twenty less bastards to worry about.
That's not how Afghanistan will be won of course, by military power alone - the history of the country proves that. One day we'll have to sit down and negotiate with these people, but they're not willing to do that at present, so we keep killing them until they do.
That's not how Afghanistan will be won of course, by military power alone - the history of the country proves that. One day we'll have to sit down and negotiate with these people, but they're not willing to do that at present, so we keep killing them until they do.
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