[Misc] How can the NHS survive in its current form ?

[Swansman]

As long as average life-span continues to increase, costs for healthcare will also increase.

Incentivising healthier living through things like increased taxes on junk food etc. along with spending more money on medical research to be able to automate a lot of time-consuming diagnosing and treatment is the way to solve it long-term. Privatising it to make Cerberus Inc. profit from people having poor health is not going to solve anything.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Treat everyone on medical need and without prejudice.

This. The founding principles of the NHS are noble beyond modern-day belief. So much so that we tend to take it - and our health - completely for granted. Which family in the land hasn't had one or more family member's life saved by this most beautiful jewel in the UK crown? Having said that: miss an appointment without reasonable reason? £10 fine would seem fair. Get pissed and punchy in A&E on a Saturday night? £100 out of your wages/benefits just might make you think twice. Maybe it just needs a massive re-education programme to remind the populace as a whole that the NHS was hard won and is worth fighting tooth and nail for

 

[Hotchilidog]

The NHS needs more staff and more beds. That will cost money, there is plenty of it out there sadly none of the major parties are that keen on collecting it.

The Tories since 2010 have decimated the service so that they can move closer towards the dream of a profiteering private health service.

As for Labour, you can talk about reform until the cows come home but if you do not have enough staff or enough beds it's all hot air. Any proposed solutions that do not acknowledge the lack of resources as the source of the NHS problems will be doomed to failure.

 

[amexer]

In the last 2 years myself ,2 children, both in laws and 3 close relatives have used the NHS some serious including 3 hospital stays. Sorry but service given to all was excellent

 

[Arthur]

In the last 2 years myself ,2 children, both in laws and 3 close relatives have used the NHS some serious including 3 hospital stays. Sorry but service given to all was excellent

Doesn't make good headlines though does it.

A close friend of mine injured himself quite badly on a Saturday night. His wait for an ambulance was 45 minutes (we're probably 20 mins away from the hospital) and ended up staying 3 days in which time had two lots of surgery.

I'm not saying there isn't problems and the horror stories that the media pick up on didn't happen but my recent experience is similar to yours.

 

[Nibbler]

The NHS cannot be run on the funds the government is willing to give, and that's without a substantial pay rise for staff (which must happen). The only way to make it work is to dramatically scale back the services it offers. For example:

Free:

• GPs for everybody
• Support for children, disabled and the financially disadvantaged
• Anything life threatening

Beyond that I would say everything else needs to be paid for by the patient.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The NHS cannot be run on the funds the government is willing to give, and that's without a substantial pay rise for staff (which must happen). The only way to make it work is to dramatically scale back the services it offers. For example:

Free:

• GPs for everybody
• Support for children, disabled and the financially disadvantaged
• Anything life threatening

Beyond that I would say everything else needs to be paid for by the patient.

That's easily solved by upgrading the government to one with a better set of values

 

[portlock seagull]

Short answer is it’s already dead (in current form, whatver that means). People are naive or stupid if they believe it resembles anything like what it used to be designed for. That’s part of the problem, people have extremely outdated views of what it should be and provide, by several decades. It was a lot richer then, less demand and scope.

The challenges are great, many and have grown exponentially in that time, not least life expectancy and attitudes towards. Bluntly put, where millions who previously would have died in years gone past they are now kept alive often for many years with little or no actual quality of life. Ethical dilemma and debate as to whether they should or shouldn’t obviously, not helped by ridiculous / outdated laws where we can’t choose to end our own lives if terminally ill. Instead we have to go to Switzerland and if anyone comes with us, like a loving spouse of 50years, they get charged as an accessory to murder. Not for the first time, our lords and masters believe they know what’s best but really they’re cowards and charlatans without any grasp of reality.

Bottom line is, we reached capacity some time ago. A 2 tier system has been in place for decades already. As throughout entire history of mankind, if you’re wealthy you will generally live longer than if you’re poor. Twas ever thus, and remains so.

 

[Echo the Seagull]

The NHS, the political hand grenade, to be tossed between Red and Blue until it eventually goes off. And when it does the ones not holding it will say "I told you so"

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Short answer is it’s already dead (in current form, whatver that means). People are naive or stupid if they believe it resembles anything like what it used to be designed for. That’s part of the problem, people have extremely outdated views of what it should be and provide, by several decades. It was a lot richer then, less demand and scope.

The challenges are great, many and have grown exponentially in that time, not least life expectancy and attitudes towards. Bluntly put, where millions who previously would have died in years gone past they are now kept alive often for many years with little or no actual quality of life. Ethical dilemma and debate as to whether they should or shouldn’t obviously, not helped by ridiculous / outdated laws where we can’t choose to end our own lives if terminally ill. Instead we have to go to Switzerland and if anyone comes with us, like a loving spouse of 50years, they get charged as an accessory to murder. Not for the first time, our lords and masters believe they know what’s best but really they’re cowards and charlatans without any grasp of reality.

Bottom line is, we reached capacity some time ago. A 2 tier system has been in place for decades already. As throughout entire history of mankind, if you’re wealthy you will generally live longer than if you’re poor. Twas ever thus, and remains so.

Sorry, but as a critique of the NHS in its current form, your post is complete bolleaux. It's almost like the NHS didn't rise magnificently to the overwhelming challenges of a global pandemic. And throughout it all they never once stopped nagging me that it was time for my annual asthma review bless 'em

 

[dazzer6666]

Yes. And never forget there is a cabal in the tory party (a minority I hope, but fear not) that are implacably opposed to 'state-funded' anything, and want the NHS sold off. The best way to achieve that aim is to make people hate it, be angry with 'greedy' nurses, junior doctors and ambulance staff, while offering tax breaks and wheezes for private insurance (including making the NHS 'outsource' to private hospitals like the did for me a few months ago), making private health care appear to be affordable and even 'the right way forward for those that can afford it' - to take 'pressure' off the NHS.

I'm not a medic but I work with them (and train some of them) as a university academic with a lab and office in a London teaching hospital. everything dazzer says above is correct. What concerns me is that the system is now so dependent on its own processes that it may now be impossible to fix. There are so many administrators now, in charge of various different silos, that no one person has an overview of what needs to be fixed and how. Those running the silos are not likely to vote for sacking half their number and reducing the paperwork, are they?

So this is how the parallel system, the private hospitals that can pick and choose what to treat, based on profitability, can thrive.

If there ever was anything that epitomizes socialism, it is the NHS - free at the point of use. This is why it has to go. After all, why should I have to pay for lazy fat people to be treated for preventable diseases? Other narratives are of course available, but who doesn't enjoy a bit of scapegoating?

The reality is a great load of money together with a reduction in the amount of process (which will have to be enforced and which will result in job losses) is the only way of 'fixing' the NHS. I am not sure Labour have the courage to tackle the problem. There may be some sort of half way house that allows people to bimble on, but I fear that we may have already crossed what Douglas Adams called 'the shoe event horizon' where the product becomes so expensive and employs so many people that eventually the whole nation will be working in the 'industry'. Blair tried a half way house and ironically this opened the door to the 'tendering' for bloody everything that enshrines 'practice' in the NHS now. His second biggest error, in my view.

Yep…..I’m not a medic but have direct involvement/interest due to the immense demands on the clinical side of things at the school where I’m a Trustee, and separately our eldest is a nurse (was in DME, then in research attached to a Uni/drug co clinical trial and now in palliative care in a General Hospital) so I hear a lot. The wastage is truly horrific.

Not heard the ‘shoe event horizon’ but sounds on that path. The politics and vested interests alone involved in the amount true reform necessary would stop it happening even if any party had the courage to try it. Only need to think of the reaction to massive changes in working practices, controversial decisions in terms of care options, enormous numbers of (and cost of) redundancies and suchlike. Any party trying it will also be instantly opposed for political expediency regardless of the solutions proposed.

My guess is we will bimble on, at least fro the foreseeable, simply because it’s too big an issue to address.

 

[dazzer6666]

As long as average life-span continues to increase, costs for healthcare will also increase.

Incentivising healthier living through things like increased taxes on junk food etc. along with spending more money on medical research to be able to automate a lot of time-consuming diagnosing and treatment is the way to solve it long-term. Privatising it to make Cerberus Inc. profit from people having poor health is not going to solve anything.

Pizza tax

 

[BLOCK F]

Only one thing needs changing, the government.
And a Labour (or preferably a Lib/lab coalition) government needs time to fix it.

Ha-ha.
You are kidding yourself……..if only it was that simple.

 

[amexer]

About year and a half ago I spent 3 days in hospital. Service was so good I wrote my one and only letter to Argus singing NHS praises. No letter published so sent another following week. Sill no luck. In that 2 weeks 3 letters moaning about NHS were published. I havent purchased Argus since

 

[Bold Seagull]

The problems with NHS funding are decades old, not just the last decade. Every government I can remember going back to Callaghan has endured the same headlines of NHS in crisis and underfunding.

The model is indeed archaic.

The taxpayers NHS pension bill is in the £billions.
Every 1% wage increase is £16m pa added to the wage bill.

How many other countries in the world have copied our model in the last 80 years?

Pre pandemic the UK spent £4386 per person compared to the US £10,856 per person, Germany £6408 per person, France £5168 per person.

This takes into account spending per person whether a public / state funded / insurance backed private funded etc.

It's pretty clear that we lag behind spending for our healthcare, not just hospital care, but keeping people out of hospital with better care assistance and residential care.

As for your question, many have, Italy, Spain and Portugal are quite close copies, New Zealand and Malta are similar, Scandinavian models are mostly revenues collected by tax.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The NHS needs more staff and more beds. That will cost money, there is plenty of it out there sadly none of the major parties are that keen on collecting it.

The Tories since 2010 have decimated the service so that they can move closer towards the dream of a profiteering private health service.

As for Labour, you can talk about reform until the cows come home but if you do not have enough staff or enough beds it's all hot air. Any proposed solutions that do not acknowledge the lack of resources as the source of the NHS problems will be doomed to failure.

And how many swallow the lie that it isn't about the funding? Amazing people believe it's down to structure and reform. Same old lies by the same old party that, like wanting to get out of the EU, wants to dismantle the NHS.

 

[drew]

The NHS cannot be run on the funds the government is willing to give, and that's without a substantial pay rise for staff (which must happen). The only way to make it work is to dramatically scale back the services it offers. For example:

Free:

• GPs for everybody
• Support for children, disabled and the financially disadvantaged
• Anything life threatening

Beyond that I would say everything else needs to be paid for by the patient.

You are Jeremy Hunt and I claim my prize.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Huge, massive subject - and it's clear the NHS is struggling - due to so many reasons - but I thought the below was interesting.....

Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), which reported in September 2021: “It is worth noting that even without any top up, health spending is set to account for an ever-growing share of total day-to-day public service spending: 44% by 2024−25, up from 42% in 2019−20, 32% in 2009−10, and 27% in 1999−00.

Worlds fifth largest employer - something is going drastically wrong somewhere.

 

[beorhthelm]

The NHS needs more staff and more beds. That will cost money, there is plenty of it out there sadly none of the major parties are that keen on collecting it.

The Tories since 2010 have decimated the service so that they can move closer towards the dream of a profiteering private health service.

As for Labour, you can talk about reform until the cows come home but if you do not have enough staff or enough beds it's all hot air. Any proposed solutions that do not acknowledge the lack of resources as the source of the NHS problems will be doomed to failure.

did you know UK staffing for beds is 3 times that of France or Germany? maybe how we provide services needs changing.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Ha-ha.
You are kidding yourself……..if only it was that simple.

It was the coalition bit that amused me most.

You won't fix anything with coal. Fact.