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House buying



BigGully

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2006
7,139
My post is not a rant at estate agents (although they are clearly part of the problem), but a genuine query as to why people aren't protected from unscrupulous, disgraceful behaviour.

Wouldnt the Scottish system just bring your disdain further back just prior to the aforementioned Scottish 'agree a deal' stage if they then backed out at that stage in that country and why is the later 'agree deal' stage (exchange of contracts) here in England deemed by you so inappropriate in comparison ??

Serious question.
 




TotallyFreaked

Active member
Jul 2, 2011
324
The problem is that a lot of buyers now use surveys to wrangle as much money off as possible. Surveyors are always going to cover themselves if any possible problem arise so will paint the bleakest picture. The buyer then goes to town with this and use it to get money off even though some issues may even have been evident with visual inspection. I rarely meet anybody nowadays who have not had these issues with their buyers.

I can not see why the seller is not required to get the survey as part of the selling pack and then everyone knows any issues etc before any offer is made.
 


Biscuit Barrel

Well-known member
Jan 28, 2014
2,760
Southwick
Can someone explain to me how, in this day and age, it is legal in England for people to be utterly f*cked over by slimey agents and greedy vendors when a deal has been agreed, and valuations and solicitors have been paid for?

For all the blather about disagreements on economic policy, why hasn't a single political party ever decided they are going to sort out this nonsense? I reckon I'd vote for any party who would make this sort of thing a priority. Surely it can't be difficult? House buying works fine in France, Italy and of course Scotland, why not here? It's a disgraceful situation which has ruined my life for 18 months now.

I know in France the fee for selling you house is about 7% of the sale price. My dad has just sold a house in Spain for around 200k and the fee was just shy of 10K.

The reason why successive governments have not changed the buying and selling process is because it is not as simply as you say it is. There are pro's and cons for our current system and other country's. I have Scottish friends who bought a house in Brighton a few years ago and said how wonderful our system was compared to their's in Scotland.
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
Because people don't want to sign to buy/sell when they haven't got all the information they need.
That's the whole point of the clauses in your document of intent. Reasonable potential problems allow for an escape.

Well I've bought and sold a lot of properties, so I feel I know a fair bit, but you must know loads mode. Which begs the question, why did you bother posting?
But none in Scotland, Italy or France.

That's not a fact, it's a matter of opinion. The reason we haven't followed their system is because many experts don't think it's better than ours. Still, you aren't going to agree and you think you know it all, so I'll leave you to it.
No it's a fact. It really is. Sorry. You won't find many (anyone?) with experience in any of these countries who says otherwise. How can any system be worse than one where honest people can spend thousands of pounds and then have the rug pulled from under them? It stinks.
 
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Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
Wouldn't the Scottish system just bring your disdain further back just prior to the aforementioned Scottish 'agree a deal' stage if they then backed out at that stage in that country and why is the later 'agree deal' stage (exchange of contracts) here in England deemed by you so inappropriate in comparison ??

Serious question.
Yes and no. In Scotland, you don't spend £2,000 on mortgage arrangement fees, mortgage valuations and solicitors until that "agree a deal" stage is signed. So while you might be a bit fed up if someone pulls out before you agree the deal, it hasn't cost you anything.


I know in France the fee for selling you house is about 7% of the sale price. My dad has just sold a house in Spain for around 200k and the fee was just shy of 10K.

The reason why successive governments have not changed the buying and selling process is because it is not as simply as you say it is. There are pro's and cons for our current system and other country's. I have Scottish friends who bought a house in Brighton a few years ago and said how wonderful our system was compared to their's in Scotland.
You're right about the selling fee. And it's almost the same in Germany! I'd really be interested to know how our system was considered "wonderful" though by your Scottish-buying friends . My guess is that there are fewer legal hoops here. That's fine if you haven't been stung, but regulations are put in place to protect people.
 












Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,183
Goldstone
That's the whole point of the clauses in your document of intent. Reasonable potential problems allow for an escape.

But none in Scotland
No, but I know how it works here and I've got a good idea of how it works there. There several people can spend money on a solicitor before making an offer, only one of which will be accepted, so several people have already lost money. And even then, after the offer has been accepted, either side can still pull out.

One of the problems here (which I assume is your problem at the moment) is that prices can rise very quickly, making it more likely for a seller to put the price up after the offer. That's something that probably doesn't happen so much in the countries you mention. In France you sign before having a survey, right? I can't imagine that never causes problems. In Italy you make an offer and if it's accepted that is binding - so presumably you have to have a survey before making the offer? More money wasted for those whose offer isn't accepted.
 


Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
No, but I know how it works here and I've got a good idea of how it works there. There several people can spend money on a solicitor before making an offer, only one of which will be accepted, so several people have already lost money. And even then, after the offer has been accepted, either side can still pull out.
I'm not convinced by this argument. Firstly, how much money are you really likely to have spent on solicitors fees before making an offer and signing an agreement? You see a place, you haggle, offers are put forward, then the seller chooses one and the parties agree on a document of intent. That document is fairly standard, you wouldn't need to pay a solicitor hundreds of pounds to modify it every time.

One of the problems here (which I assume is your problem at the moment) is that prices can rise very quickly, making it more likely for a seller to put the price up after the offer. That's something that probably doesn't happen so much in the countries you mention. In France you sign before having a survey, right? I can't imagine that never causes problems. In Italy you make an offer and if it's accepted that is binding - so presumably you have to have a survey before making the offer? More money wasted for those whose offer isn't accepted.
It happens in Scotland as often as it happens in many regions of England, surely? And why are you convinced that the French way of signing a document of intent before paying for a survey is going to cause problems? I'm sure there are small issues with it, but ultimately the document of intent covers most potential issues. Obviously, you might find that one party questions the findings of a survey, say on subsidence - but ultimately you could get an agreed second opinion, or take further legal action if necessary. It certainly seems a lot fairer than decent people being fleeced through no fault of their own.
 


The Antikythera Mechanism

The oldest known computer
NSC Patron
Aug 7, 2003
8,090
Under normal law a contract comes into being when an offer is accepted. If the offer is withdrawn, a breach of contract arises. This should apply to house purchases.
 




Uncle Spielberg

Well-known member
Jul 6, 2003
43,097
Lancing
If anyone needs any help and advice with the whole process I am here
 


Bozza

You can change this
Helpful Moderator
Jul 4, 2003
57,295
Back in Sussex
Can someone explain to me how, in this day and age, it is legal in England for people to be utterly f*cked over by slimey agents and greedy vendors when a deal has been agreed, and valuations and solicitors have been paid for?

For all the blather about disagreements on economic policy, why hasn't a single political party ever decided they are going to sort out this nonsense? I reckon I'd vote for any party who would make this sort of thing a priority. Surely it can't be difficult? House buying works fine in France, Italy and of course Scotland, why not here? It's a disgraceful situation which has ruined my life for 18 months now.

Firstly, you have my sympathy. When a planned move doesn't go well, it can be really stressful and very unsettling.

The situation you describe feels grubby and unethical. I'd like to think that if I was a vendor and proceeding with a sale then I'd not entertain any other purchasers unless the deal struck started to go amiss. But if my agent came to me with, say, another offer £10k higher I'm not so sure. £10k is £10k - it's a lot of money.

Have you been proceeding with this purchase for 18 months only for it to all come unstuck now?
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,183
Goldstone
I'm not convinced by this argument. Firstly, how much money are you really likely to have spent on solicitors fees before making an offer and signing an agreement?
Not too much I wouldn't think, but it's still annoying for a few buyers whose offer isn't high enough isn't it?
You see a place, you haggle, offers are put forward
What haggling is there? Isn't haggling (from the buyer's point of view) the art of getting the seller to come down in price, which isn't possible when someone else is going to make a bid?

And why are you convinced that the French way of signing a document of intent before paying for a survey is going to cause problems?
Just based on what I think happens when people buy a house. The seller wants as much as possible, the buyer wants a discount. If a contract is signed before a survey is done, what happens when that survey reveals a bundle of little things that amount to over £10k of work? I had someone ask for £10k off because their surveyor said they didn't know if my property had insulation. Obviously the surveyor didn't know, he didn't take the walls apart, the buyer was trying it on. I just think that would be a pain if there was already a signed contract, who decides how much discount there is.
ultimately you could get an agreed second opinion, or take further legal action if necessary.
Legal action is an expensive nightmare, everyone wants to avoid that.

It certainly seems a lot fairer than decent people being fleeced through no fault of their own.
I'm not saying that I know for a fact that it isn't fairer, but you're saying you know for a fact that it is. I don't think any of these systems are perfect. If they were, then surely we'd follow them? Which I know is what you're advocating, but perhaps the reason we're not following, is because they're not perfect.
 




Simster

"the man's an arse"
Jul 7, 2003
54,952
Surrey
Have you been proceeding with this purchase for 18 months only for it to all come unstuck now?
No. Honestly, this is the FIFTH time either my house sale has fallen through or we have been gazumped. Today it happened again. I have now spent £6,000 on wasted fees. I'm now just ever so slightly cross.

What happened was:
* people buying my house were dependent on their place being sold. It fell through, but chain was repaired within a week. However, this has added 6 weeks to the process
* people we were buying from got wind of this (as their estate agent was also involved down the chain), and have taken a higher offer from someone who was originally not in a proceedable position but is now.
* we were in the dark while all of this happened over a 24 hour period. Our agent didn't tell us about our buyer. Our vendor's agent didn't tell us they were considering other offers.
 


Justice

Dangerous Idiot
Jun 21, 2012
20,684
Born In Shoreham
Can someone explain to me how, in this day and age, it is legal in England for people to be utterly f*cked over by slimey agents and greedy vendors when a deal has been agreed, and valuations and solicitors have been paid for?

For all the blather about disagreements on economic policy, why hasn't a single political party ever decided they are going to sort out this nonsense? I reckon I'd vote for any party who would make this sort of thing a priority. Surely it can't be difficult? House buying works fine in France, Italy and of course Scotland, why not here? It's a disgraceful situation which has ruined my life for 18 months now.
Would you turn down another 10k for the sake of being nice if you were the seller?
 




Hampster Gull

Well-known member
Dec 22, 2010
13,465
I agree Simster, the regulation here is poor at best. I have benefited from a seller not being slimey and have followed suit to others since but i think the market would work better by additional regulation. Not my usual approach but there you go
 




Surrey_Albion

New member
Jan 17, 2011
2,867
Horley
can't believe what estate agents earn for doing nothing other than looking after some door keys!
 




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