[News] Hong Kong - Hoping For The Best But Expecting The Worst

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

I wouldn't want to wash our hands of them. I don't know how workable it is to offer citizenship to £7m people. Where would they all go?

I don't understand politics well enough to know why the free world can't do more against China's treatment of Hong Kong, just like I don't understand why Russia's occupation of the Crimea is accepted.

Nuclear Weapons means you can do whatever you want.

Oh and the power of money / trade & cheap labour ....

 

[Triggaaar]

Communism was always about dictatorships.

The Chinese state is still up to the same old tricks it always was.

Indeed China is, but communism is from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. China has kept the dictatorship of their communist background, but they now have a capitalist economy.

 

[Triggaaar]

Nuclear Weapons means you can do whatever you want.

I assume you're just joking there.

Oh and the power of money / trade & cheap labour ....

It's western consumers that want cheaply made shit from China. They want it, but they don't need it. It would benefit the west to have more production over here, instead of in China, so I don't see why the EU and US don't join forces and insist China reforms, or we'll stop trading with them.

 

[dingodan]

I don't understand politics well enough to know why the free world can't do more against China's treatment of Hong Kong, just like I don't understand why Russia's occupation of the Crimea is accepted.

We make it easy for Russia and China. If Spain can beat up protesters (infact, voters), and if we can invade and occupy Afghanistan and Iraq, we don't have any moral highground to stand on.

I honestly think Russia may have thought twice about any military action outside it's boarder - if - the principle of national sovereignty/act of aggression was still held as a standard. It isn't. So there is nothing we can say, and they know it.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

I assume you're just joking there.

It's western consumers that want cheaply made shit from China. They want it, but they don't need it. It would benefit the west to have more production over here, instead of in China, so I don't see why the EU and US don't join forces and insist China reforms, or we'll stop trading with them.

US / UK Invasion of Iraq
Russia invading Ukraine
China in Hong Kong
India in Kashmir
Israel in the Middle East

Nuclear weapons means you can throw your weight around on the international stage and there is nothing militarily anyone can do to stop it without serious escalation.

Big companies like cheap Chinese Labour ...

 

[sydney]

I assume you're just joking there.
It's western consumers that want cheaply made shit from China. They want it, but they don't need it. It would benefit the west to have more production over here, instead of in China, so I don't see why the EU and US don't join forces and insist China reforms, or we'll stop trading with them.

China is almost out of control mate ....nabbing islands and building bases throughout the pacific , huge speculation over the capabilities of the satellites they are putting into orbit......cyber espionage etc. etc. we can't tell them anything.

 

[Triggaaar]

if we can invade and occupy Afghanistan and Iraq, we don't have any moral highground to stand on.

We haven't occupied Afganhistan or Iraq. We recognise both as sovereign countries, and we only go the to either support their governments of to fight terrorists. We're not settling there. We're not claiming that they're part of the UK, as Russia is with Crimea, and China is with Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet.

 

[Triggaaar]

US / UK Invasion of Iraq

As above, we're not taking ownership of the land there.

Russia invading Ukraine
China in Hong Kong

These were my examples.

India in Kashmir

Well that makes no sesne. Kashmir has always been disputed between India and Pakistan, and Pakistan is a nuclear power too, so it goes against your argument that you don't mess with nuclear powers.

Israel in the Middle East

Israel is an unusual example. Israel were attacked by their neighbours. Israel's neighbours want to see Israel completely destroyed.

Nuclear weapons means you can throw your weight around on the international stage and there is nothing militarily anyone can do to stop it without serious escalation.

Christ I wasn't suggesting we go to war with China and Russia, I was suggesting we (the west) stop trading with them.

 

[BN41Albion]

Communism was always about dictatorships.

The Chinese state is still up to the same old tricks it always was.

I agree with that, but I mean in terms of the welfare state, the way the economy is run, etc. It's less communist in that respect nowadays than the UK. (No nhs, etc)

 

[dingodan]

We haven't occupied Afganhistan or Iraq. We recognise both as sovereign countries, and we only go the to either support their governments of to fight terrorists. We're not settling there. We're not claiming that they're part of the UK, as Russia is with Crimea, and China is with Hong Kong, Taiwan, Tibet.

Come on. We (the west, rather than specifically the UK) installed the Afghan (Karzai) government which then "invited" us over. Same with Iraq, we had to remove the government and install a new one, by force, before we were "invited" in.

Russia will tell you they went into Crimea to fight terrorists or similar. China have said terrorism is what is taking place in Hong-Kong right now.

No doubt there are differences between how the West has behaved vs how China and Russia behave, but those differences are too nuanced to make any difference in the final analysis. Even if we accept your assessment that we didn't invade and occupy two soveriegn countries (which I think is a stretch), that is not the perception internationally. It's not even the perception domestically for many people.

 

[Triggaaar]

Come on. We (the west, rather than specifically the UK) installed the Afghan (Karzai) government which then "invited" us over. Same with Iraq, we had to remove the government and install a new one, by force, before we were "invited" in.

There is a difference between trying to affect what flavour the government is, and actually occupying the land and treating it as your own, and taking the natural resources as if they were yours. There is a difference between having an oil company that gets paid to extract oil, and simply taking the oil and selling it for yourself.

Russia will tell you they went into Crimea to fight terrorists or similar.

But Russia have stayed and rule it as their own.

China have said terrorism is what is taking place in Hong-Kong right now.

Oh please. When did the people of Hong Kong kill thousands of innocent people in China? When did Hong Kong invade another country (like Kuwait)? When did Hong Kong try and build nuclear weapons (and while we were fooled and WMDs, they were trying)?

Even if we accept your assessment that we didn't invade and occupy two soveriegn countries (which I think is a stretch), that is not the perception internationally. It's not even the perception domestically for many people.

Yes it is. It's completely different.

Not that it matters. I'm sure the west could make China and Russia reform more.

 

[SeagullinExile]

Classic 'Agent provocateur' tactics by China in play here I reckon.

 

[Beanstalk]

I wouldn't want to wash our hands of them. I don't know how workable it is to offer citizenship to £7m people. Where would they all go?

I don't understand politics well enough to know why the free world can't do more against China's treatment of Hong Kong, just like I don't understand why Russia's occupation of the Crimea is accepted.

Very much agree with all of that. Especially why the "free world" doesn't do more.

 

[Beanstalk]

I don't believe Hong Kong has ever been ruled democratically at any point in it's history. Not by us, and not by the Chinese.

1985 marked the beginning of Hong Kong's representative democracy with an election for the legislative council. 24 members were elected.

 

[portlock seagull]

Nothing to do with us, those Chinese ought to get used to being, er, Chinese. There’s only going to be one winner and it ain’t gonna be leader of the student union!!

 

[portlock seagull]

China is almost out of control mate ....nabbing islands and building bases throughout the pacific , huge speculation over the capabilities of the satellites they are putting into orbit......cyber espionage etc. etc. we can't tell them anything.

Precisely. When you’re a 3 billion strong dictatorship armed to the teeth with money to burn you tend to get your own way, like we once did. And US and Russia still do to a lesser extent. I’d vouch many wanting us to do more don’t, at the same time, want to join or pay for our armed forces, hate being British, despise our colonial history, rather ironically, nor have a grasp on reality I.e. our domestic never mind foreign policy is in tatters, it’s the other side of the world and China owns most of our national infrastructure now having steadily bought up schools, hospitals, transport, utilities and even football clubs would you believe over the past 20 years. Nah, I think China can choose to ignore us on this one. We’re sort of a David without any pebbles and a dislocated shoulder. Goliath can do what he wants this century.

 

[Triggaaar]

This. My wife is Taiwanese so I keep up to date with everything going on over there. The Taiwanese cannot stand the Chinese and the worry is that once Hong Kong is 'sorted', China will then look to Taiwan.

Indeed that is the worry, but it should have to be a full war. China has no right to Taiwan, whereas they do have some right to rule Hong Kong. IMO, the Taiwanese should just be resolute that China will never control Taiwan.

The current Taiwanese president is pro independence, and China have cut off pretty much all tourism to Taiwan from China and have just announced they will no longer give out a visa for individuals who want to visit Taiwan.

Give out visas? It should be up to Taiwan whom they give visas to, not China.

A few years ago anywhere you went in Taiwan was crowded with Chinese Tourists who would spend lots of money, this has now stopped with just a handful of group visits which has had a huge impact on the economy. My brother in law is a tourist guide, driving groups of Chinese around the country on tours, his work has dried up as they are not coming and this is just one example of how China can dictate while not being in direct control.

Yes, but when I went 30 years ago there weren't any Chinese tourists. They got a lot of money from Chinese tourists, and now that has somewhat dried up. That's life, move on.

Apparently China has close to 2000 missiles pointing at Taiwan. If they attacked, no one would come to Taiwan's help, even though the USA have promised to, but I cannot see it.

There are many countries around the world that could easily be obliterated by their neighbour, without others coming to help. That doesn't mean it'll happen though. What has China got to gain from killing those they claim are their own citizens? It's not like they need the land, and there aren't any natural resources worth invading for. So how many missiles doesn't really matter. China's best option is to try and convince the citizens of Taiwan that it'll be good for them (with their usual BS media etc). I don't think a full scale war would be a good idea.

Hong Kong is the same, If China came in all heavy handed, no one would be able to react as China is untouchable unfortunately.

The only similarity is that no one else would want to go to war over it. China could simply roll their tanks into Hong Kong, there wouldn't be a war. That's not so easy with Taiwan.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

The problem with Taiwan is nobody recognises it as an actual nation, not even Taiwan.

If they moved away from the position that they are the official Government of China and instead went down the path for independence they may receive more support from the likes of the US and Japan.

 

[Steve in Japan]

1985 marked the beginning of Hong Kong's representative democracy with an election for the legislative council. 24 members were elected.

Hong Kong is not a democracy by any rational measure, no matter what window-dressing has been put in place. If it was, these protests would not be happening.

 

[Tokyohands]

Chair of Foreign Affairs Select Committee has suggested we offer citizenship to all Hong Kong Chinese. I’d in inclined to agree with him. We should have done this back when the handover happened but it is at least something now. We let HK down, and China won’t listen to us diplomatically ...

Many many HK'ers actually did move over, so I don't think the government let them down as they gave all HK'ers the right to move after Tiananmen. That is why most of the Chinese takeaways and chippies owned by asians were/are Cantonese.