Homophobia in football - BBC news article

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Interesting to see Matt Lucas's view that, were a player to come out, opposing fans would "give you hell".

I really, really don't believe that would be the case, and to suggest it would seems to me like a case of stereotyping in much the same way as he perceives would happen to said player.

For one thing, the first player to come out is, rightly or wrongly, going to find himself (and I say "himself", because there are plenty of out gay female players) at the centre of much attention. He will also be massively supported across all quarters: witness other sportsmen who've made the step such as Tom Daley, Keegan Hirst, Robbie Rogers, Thomas Hitzlsperger, Gareth Thomas and Nigel Owens. The first few games after it happens will be very high profile, as the media descend to observe the crowd reaction.

It's inevitable you might get the odd "wag" (I use that term reluctantly in this situation, as it rather infers a certain wit, which clearly wouldn't be the case if he was making smutty remarks about a gay footballer) chipping in with a comment, or some pissed up bloke or two trying to start something. But I honestly believe that the overwhelming majority of any crowd, be they home or away fans would be entirely supportive, and recognisant of the huge step taken by that player. We all have gay friends, family or work colleagues somewhere in our lives, yet I'm pretty sure even the most old fashioned of guys can manage to walk around their office without bursting into "Do you take it up the arse?" to their workmates. I think anybody attempting to start an abusive song would soon find himself drowned out by hundreds of other, decent, respectful, embarrassed human beings.

I actually find it vaguely insulting, as a football fan, when the media perpetuate the idea that crowds would give an out gay player fifty shades of abuse. I really don't think it is the case. But all the time that view is expressed, then it makes it, sadly, less likely that a player will feel it's worth coming out.

I posted the Lucas interview because I remembered it, and remembered him saying he'd join in with 'I can see you holding hands' if Arsenal play Brighton. I did so because it seems some of us think there is a line to be drawn between (apols, Edna, I know you hate this term, as do I) 'banter' and nastiness. I agree there is a line, but the line is moving and it is not defined by the actual words, but their impact, which is a function of what is meant and what is perceived.

On the one side of the line is humour with a bit of tribal rivalry, clearly all of them mocking all of us. On the other side of the line is malice; where it is accepted that northerners are, in general, thick monkeys who smoke their dole money and batter their kids; and (back to context) where it is accepted that 'poofs' are degenrate perverts.

So some people want the line moved so that it is more easy and common to toss the abuse, happy in the knowledge that hatred of 'others' is right and good. Other people find it all a bit unpleasant and needless, and would prefer the line moved in the other direction.

Personally I feel there is a difference between generic abuse ('shit town, no fans'; does your whippet know you're here') and using abuse not to wind up the opposition but to actually channel hate towards a third party. I suspect the line is moving in the direction of 'we can see you holding hands' becoming unacceptable. How quickly? We shall see.

I think the bottom line is that I may still be on the wrong side of the line (as was Matt Lucas 3 years ago) in that I am not offended or enraged by 'we can see you holding hands'. This is because I don't regard being gay as in any way bad. But let's be honest, I am not gay and I am not holding hands so the chant just whooshes over my head. Were I gay I'd doubtless feel differently. How could you not feel uncomfortable if your identity was being used to inform an abusive chant, especially if most people around you understand it to me meant to be abusive, regardless of how few people actually feel abused by being called gay?

All a bit nuanced, but as Edna suggests, once a few footy boys start coming out, our agonizing will hopefully all soon become as obsolete as the routine racist abuse that used to be chucked about loud and clear at the football till 'kick it out' etc gained traction.

 

[Braggfan]

In regards to less obvious homophobia or banter as some people would refer to it.

I remember working in a supermarket years ago, and there was a transgender customer who came in a few times a week. I was only about 18 but I remember being shocked that members of the public and staff were so openly rude to her. When asked where something was, some staff would reply “over there mate”. I regularly heard people refer to her in a masculine tense or sometimes as “it”. I mean how hard is to offer another human being the tiniest bit of respect by referring to them as her or she.

Now this might not seem like a big deal to a lot of people, but what struck me about this was that this woman had come to do her shopping and that’s how she was treated. It was a safe bet that if something as mundane as shopping brought out that behaviour in people, that she must have got that everywhere she went. I remember thinking how brave she was that she was living her life how she wanted to, knowing full well that other people would either abuse her or at best not understand her and not be able to afford her very simple respect.

When you reflect on that for a moment and then think about the fact that 40% of transgender women have reported making a suicide attempt it makes you realise how hard it must be living with those kind if attitudes and how sad it is that this is massively misunderstood in society. When you look at that across the whole spectrum of LGBT it puts in perspective that what some sections of society would call “banter”, is easily just be another example of society pointing out to you that they don’t understand you, or dislike you.

That’s why it’s important that as club we stand up to it. That’s why I think we should have an LGBT supporters group. If we as a club want to say, we are one group, that we stand shoulder to shoulder with each other regardless or race, religion, sexuality then we should have groups to recognise those parts of our support. It would certainly be something all fans could be proud of.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

I really hope you're right, but I wonder if you've started to believe the rest of the country is like Sussex. I'm pretty sure there are clubs whose fans (by and large) are so backward that they would still chant abuse against a gay player. We'd need the media and police to help stop it.

Are we now stereotyping fans of other football clubs?

Be interesting to see what some of our northern contributors think about this. Travelling around the country following the Albion, it's noticeable that the abuse is far more prevalent when you go further north: Yorkshire and Lancashire clubs in particular seem to revel in the prospect of dusting off all their old homophobic favourites (hello Elland Road, Turf Moor, Ewood Park & Hillsborough).

Any of our resident Burnley, Sunderland, Huddersfield fans (for example) care to chip in?

 

[Petee]

I do. If you're a young gay man who supports the away team, and you're just coming to terms with your sexuality, it's not going to be nice if everyone around you is singing anti gay songs. Many of those singing will be doing so in jest, because it's just a bit of fun - but a lot of them will mean it - a lot of them actually dislike people being gay. So there you are coming to terms with the idea of being gay, and your mates next to you are joining in with slagging off gays.

No, it's nothing like that at all

Fair points, just my opinion as i don't really see the issue personally but obviously there is one there.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I have a friend who no longer comes to the Amex, because of homophobic abuse from our own fans. I know some people on here ie [MENTION=4675]Frutos[/MENTION], [MENTION=5200]Buzzer[/MENTION], [MENTION=14113]tom[/MENTION] Hark, know who I mean. I have said this on Nsc before.
It isn't acceptable from anybody,

 

[Lady Whistledown]

To be honest it's the people who aren't wearing our colours that I feel for more. If I imagine myself as a gay Brighton fan (no I know, it's easy for me), I see backward opposing fans chanting backward crap, while I stand together with my fans from a city that I know is much more accepting of me. However, if I imagine myself as a gay fan from the opposition, standing among the backward fans, wondering if my mates are going to pick up on the fact that I haven't joined in with the chanting, and whether they've noticed I don't look happy - that's a much more lonely place to be.

Good point.

Similar for a closeted player, one would think. Listening to the odd throwaway comment like "Don't be a poof mate" said across the changing room without even a second thought (nor even any true malicious intent). The old "sticks & stones" line really doesn't hold water in many circumstances.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

He's wrong on the 'holding hands' bit. Let's assume this was about race instead:

"I think you've got to allow a little bit, you know, you've got to be able to have a little bit of a laugh and a joke. Once you're calling someone you know, a n***** or something like that then it's obviously nasty and it's intended to be bullying and intimidating. Singing 'oo oo ah ah monkey monkey' - I'd probably join in if we were playing Arsenal"

Yes. I agree. As I just posted, this was 3 years ago and I suspect the line is moving. The thing is, until very recently there remained some comedy value in gayness; Julian Clarey, and to some extent, David Walliams. Likwise there are black comedians who make comedy that in some parts mocks blackness. But its not rocket scince - self mockery is very diffrent from agressive mockery of 'the other'. But I agree with you 100%. There are absolutely no racial equivalents of 'we can see you holding hands'. Not even chants much milder than 'monkey'. For example, on a cloudy day up north nobody in their right mind woud aim a chant at a black player along the lines of 'your tan won't last till half time'. Even thinking about it makes me wince.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Good point.

Similar for a closeted player, one would think. Listening to the odd throwaway comment like "Don't be a poof mate" said across the changing room without even a second thought (nor even any true malicious intent). The old "sticks & stones" line really doesn't hold water in many circumstances.

This is true. LGBT people attempt suicide more than any other part of society.

http://www.stonewall.org.uk/media/lgbt-facts-and-figures

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Now this might not seem like a big deal to a lot of people, but what struck me about this was that this woman had come to do her shopping and that’s how she was treated. It was a safe bet that if something as mundane as shopping brought out that behaviour in people, that she must have got that everywhere she went. I remember thinking how brave she was that she was living her life how she wanted to, knowing full well that other people would either abuse her or at best not understand her and not be able to afford her very simple respect.

Quite. I witnessed something very similar on a bus in Hove not long ago, where a group of teenagers at the back felt the need to pass comment and snigger at another passenger for the entire journey. If that was just a single, short snapshot of her life, I dread to think what other indignities she has to endure.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

I really don't see any issue in the 'does your boyfriend know you're here' and 'we can see you holding hands' chants. It is just stereotypical for our city. Just like chanting to northerners about benefits, Leeds fans about Savile, Liverpool fans about stealing car stereos etc.

If those chants were aimed at an ethnic minority the fans singing would (or should) be evicted from the ground. Passing it off as 'banter' normalises homophobia and makes even 'low level' homophobia acceptable.

 

[GT49er]

Be interesting to see what some of our northern contributors think about this. Travelling around the country following the Albion, it's noticeable that the abuse is far more prevalent when you go further north: Yorkshire and Lancashire clubs in particular seem to revel in the prospect of dusting off all their old homophobic favourites (hello Elland Road, Turf Moor, Ewood Park & Hillsborough).

It will be interesting to see how the Leeds LGBT group get on, then. One can only wish them the best of luck!

 

[nickbrighton]

Fair points, just my opinion as i don't really see the issue personally but obviously there is one there.

and this is what we are discussing- You, and many others, don't see what the issue is. THATS the issue, the fact that so many people do not understand that casual anti gay references are very damaging to those who happen to be gay. Just like the "that's so gay" expression , its horrible to keep being told by perfectly nice people , who just have no understanding that what they are saying and doing is actually saying there is something wrong with you. The effect that this has on us is actually indescribable, and to have that shouted at you by several thousand people all at once is truly intimidating.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

It will be interesting to see how the Leeds LGBT group get on, then. One can only wish them the best of luck!

This is news to me! If there isn't already a thread on WACCOE entitled "So when do we get a straight white male Leeds fans group?", I'll eat my hat.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This is news to me! If there isn't already a thread on WACCOE entitled "So when do we get a straight white male Leeds fans group?", I'll eat my hat.

https://www.leedsunited.com/news/club-news/22138/leeds-endorse-new-lgbt-supporters-group

 

[GT49er]

This is news to me!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40846848

 

[Lady Whistledown]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40846848

Just googled the new Leeds fans' LGBT support group. Here are but a few examples of the reactions from some fans to the announcement by Leeds United that they would be officially endorsing the group.


The comment "all for LGBT people need to be protected from any kind of abuse but there is no need to promote and draw attention to their sexual deviance" rather sums it up, I fear.

 

[SuperFurrySeagull]

I wonder if many gay people, like myself, ultimately wish to be invisible - I think a similar point was made in the BBC article or accompanying film - but not the 'being invisible' of not existing or of having to hide, but that of being able to merge seamlessly, should you choose to, into a diverse & accepting social landscape, where nobody genuinely gives a toss. Utopian dream maybe, although we're doubtlessly closer than we've ever been, but I think that gay groups & the like at football have a place, for now at least, in stating the claim that we exist, even if the ultimate dream is quiet coalescence & indifference.

Also, could/should gay groups & rainbow flags one day be as innocuous as flags for geographical groupings of fans, say your West Country & your Cheshire Seagulls et al?

 

[Lady Whistledown]

I wonder if many gay people, like myself, ultimately wish to be invisible - I think a similar point was made in the BBC article or accompanying film - but not the 'being invisible' of not existing or of having to hide, but that of being able to merge seamlessly, should you choose to, into a diverse & accepting social landscape, where nobody genuinely gives a toss. Utopian dream maybe, although we're doubtlessly closer than we've ever been, but I think that gay groups & the like at football have a place, for now at least, in stating the claim that we exist, even if the ultimate dream is quiet coalescence & indifference.

Also, could/should gay groups & rainbow flags one day be as innocuous as flags for geographical groupings of fans, say your West Country & your Cheshire Seagulls et al?

Agreed. It's about being able to live the same sort of existence as most other people do: such as coming into work on a Monday morning and not having to worry about what you answer when the inevitable "Get up to anything nice at the weekend" question is asked, isn't it?

That's what a lot of people don't understand, how even the simplest of things can be stressful if you're fearful of giving an honest response in case of a negative reaction.

 

[portlock seagull]

I wish we could have a week off from Anti Muslim and Anti Gay 'news'.

 

[GT49er]

Just googled the new Leeds fans' LGBT support group. Here are but a few examples of the reactions from some fans to the announcement by Leeds United that they would be officially endorsing the group.


The comment "all for LGBT people need to be protected from any kind of abuse but there is no need to promote and draw attention to their sexual deviance" rather sums it up, I fear.

Tbf, you have picked on one particular comment. Many more are along the same lines as some people have reasonably argued on here for the Albion, as in "Why do we need it, we're all Leeds, aren't we, together".