[Misc] Holocaust Memorial Day

[Coalburner]

The fact that the railway lines led into into concentration camps.or that the camps even existed, was not known until late in the war.

 

[PTC Gull]

And now this happens....wonder if any of them are actually Jewish?...https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60153696

 

[Theatre of Trees]

And guess who would have rebuilt the railways lines once destroyed? Given the Nazi propensity to hide as much as they could even in the last throes of the war (see the Death Marches), the only real solution for the allies was total defeat of Germany.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’d not be surprised if evidence comes to light that the extinction of the Neanderthals was due to genocide 40,000 years ago.

Oddly they not only persisted but they bred with homo sapiens as the latter 'emerged'. Rather a lot of us have got some unexpected Neanderthal DNA in us.

That said, you're still probably right.

 

[Live by the sea]

To highlight the Auschwitz Memorial twitter account again.

It’s an amazing Twitter account , every day you see the photos mainly of children or young men & women , most didn’t survive the war . I don’t believe I’ve seen the same photo & names twice , every day is different . It gives the people looking at the tweets an idea of the huge scale of murder that happened within a relatively short amount of time .

Whenever you feel like you are having a bad day at work or maybe had a silly argument with someone , take a moment to look at that Twitter account & count yourself blessed.

 

[Live by the sea]

The fact that the railway lines led into into concentration camps.or that the camps even existed, was not known until late in the war.

there was information that came from Polish intelligence I understand over a year before the war ended but there was big debates about the complexity of bombing the concentration camps and whether it would end up killing more people than it helped . What wasn’t known i understand was the huge numbers up to 10,000 a day ! That were being gassed at Auschwitz.

Had they been aware of the numbers , I would like to assume they would have bombed them to stop the killing procession .

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

The fact that the railway lines led into into concentration camps.or that the camps even existed, was not known until late in the war.

The Polish government-in-exile in London first reported crimes in the Auschwitz complex to the western public in 1941. Information about tortures inside this camp was published in the same year in New York in a government report from occupied Poland titled The Polish White Book. The Auschwitz camp was also noted in The Black Book of Poland, a 750-page report published in 1942 in New York by the Ministry of Information of the Polish government-in-exile describing atrocities committed by Germany in occupied Poland in twenty-two months between the invasion of Poland in September 1939, and the end of June 1941. Both were printed in New York by The Greystone Press and G.P. Putnam's Sons

 

[A1X]

The other problem with “doing something” about the camps is heavy bombing was largely a “drop it and see” effort. There was no way they could take out the railway lines through bomber command without killing huge numbers of inmates ourselves, which in turn helps the Nazis say “we weren’t killing them, this is a work camp and the RAF bombed it”.

You get more of a return out of blanket bombing Frankfurt, Hamburg or Essen than you do targeting comparatively tiny camps which you don’t even know exactly where they are or if they’re even in use.

 

[jakarta]

The other problem with “doing something” about the camps is heavy bombing was largely a “drop it and see” effort. There was no way they could take out the railway lines through bomber command without killing huge numbers of inmates ourselves, which in turn helps the Nazis say “we weren’t killing them, this is a work camp and the RAF bombed it”.

You get more of a return out of blanket bombing Frankfurt, Hamburg or Essen than you do targeting comparatively tiny camps which you don’t even know exactly where they are or if they’re even in use.

Quite, the death camps were a dreadful situation which the Allies had not foreseen and in reality could do nothing about beyond land invasion and overunning German territory.

My late Father in Law was Guards Armoured Divison and witnessed Belsen. He just said he had seen it but didn't want to talk about it...

 

[A1X]

Richard Dimbleby’s report from Belsen is just chilling

 

[warmleyseagull]

Just seen live performance in London of Leopoldstadt, screened in Bridport. Powerful drama that personalises the experiences of one fictional family of antisemitism from 1899 to 1940s, with a poignant get together of just 3 remaining in 1955.

 

[theboybilly]

It’s an amazing Twitter account , every day you see the photos mainly of children or young men & women , most didn’t survive the war . I don’t believe I’ve seen the same photo & names twice , every day is different . It gives the people looking at the tweets an idea of the huge scale of murder that happened within a relatively short amount of time .

Whenever you feel like you are having a bad day at work or maybe had a silly argument with someone , take a moment to look at that Twitter account & count yourself blessed.

[SUP][/SUP]

They do repeat photos from time to time. The picture that always gets me is that of Czeslawa Kwoka - 13 years of age and seized from her home with her mum who also perished. The picture is one of the usual 3 but this time of a young lady who has obviously been beaten before sitting for the photographer. A bruise here, a cut lip there but for me behind those sad tearful eyes I see something else - a look of total bewilderment at what fate has thrown at her. What on earth had she done to deserve this. We know the Nazi answer to this of course and in reality she was as innocent as a child could ever be. Heartbreaking. My first thought of visualising Holocaust victims is her. RIP little one

 

[amexer]

Have just read several articles. Surprised to see some of concentration camps started 2 years before start of war. Whilst can understand why German people had little option but to follow Hitler in to war but find it hard that there was not mass protest about the opening of concentration camps before the war. Maybe somebody will inform me that general German public were unaware what was going on

 

[cunning fergus]

The other problem with “doing something” about the camps is heavy bombing was largely a “drop it and see” effort. There was no way they could take out the railway lines through bomber command without killing huge numbers of inmates ourselves, which in turn helps the Nazis say “we weren’t killing them, this is a work camp and the RAF bombed it”.

You get more of a return out of blanket bombing Frankfurt, Hamburg or Essen than you do targeting comparatively tiny camps which you don’t even know exactly where they are or if they’re even in use.

In the early stages of the war you would be correct, however by the latter years bomber command could strike tactical targets in Germany with a high degree of accuracy, whether at night in by path finding unit or by day with mosquito.

Blanket bombing was itself a strategic weapon in the toolbox, and was used to de house german workers from increasingly well protected factorie

Whether or not the British Govt truly knew what was happening is moot, I would expect even if they did know bombing the camps themselves would still have been a relatively low priority in respect to diminishing Germany’s fighting capabilities.

 

[cunning fergus]

And to a lesser extent it wasn't exactly the finest hour for the Allied Forces

Newly accessed material from the United Nations – not seen for around 70 years – shows that as early as December 1942, the US, UK and Soviet governments were aware that at least two million Jews had been murdered and a further five million were at risk of being killed, and were preparing charges. Despite this, the Allied Powers did very little to try and rescue or provide sanctuary to those in mortal danger.

Indeed, in March 1943, Viscount Cranborne, a minister in the war cabinet of Winston Churchill, said the Jews should not be considered a special case and that the British Empire was already too full of refugees to offer a safe haven to any more.

I don’t doubt it, however I guess the only way to truly end Germany’s capacity to murder Jewish (and other groups) in its concentration camps was to defeat it totally by military means, which I think the Allied Powers did do as effectively as they could.

Anne Frank and her family were betrayed following D-Day and whilst British and Allied forces were fighting hard in their advance into Germany and Holland. That this happened so tantalisingly close to liberation is seemingly even more tragic, but I don’t think conflating the Allied Powers military efforts to defeat Germany and the views of potentially anti Semitic MPs is fair.

IMO.

 

[Gwylan]

Have just read several articles. Surprised to see some of concentration camps started 2 years before start of war. Whilst can understand why German people had little option but to follow Hitler in to war but find it hard that there was not mass protest about the opening of concentration camps before the war. Maybe somebody will inform me that general German public were unaware what was going on

Dachau was the first camp opened in 1933. The first inmates were mainly socialists, communists, trade unionists and 'enemies of the state'. The Nazis therefore presented the camp as housing 'troublemakers' and good Germans didn't need to worry about them. At first, it was regarded as little more as a prison but then the SS took over. After a few deaths occurred, there was an investigation led by some rather courageous Bavarian officials. The camp commandant was transferred but nothing else happened. The Bavarian ministry went full Nazi and the prisoners no longer had any legal watchdogs - the killings and beatings could carry on.

By the time the war started, Dachau had started accepting Jews but, by now, the German people were used to the camps which were just as part of the Nazi machine.

As the saying goes: the Nazis didn't come to power with talk of exterminating 6m Jews and imprisoning and killing millions of innocent people: they spoke of patriotism and German values. But look at where they led to.

There was a real good documentary on the rise of Nazism a couple of years ago. There was one episode that was entirely devoted to Dachau - worth finding

 

[Swansman]

And to a lesser extent it wasn't exactly the finest hour for the Allied Forces

Newly accessed material from the United Nations – not seen for around 70 years – shows that as early as December 1942, the US, UK and Soviet governments were aware that at least two million Jews had been murdered and a further five million were at risk of being killed, and were preparing charges. Despite this, the Allied Powers did very little to try and rescue or provide sanctuary to those in mortal danger.

Indeed, in March 1943, Viscount Cranborne, a minister in the war cabinet of Winston Churchill, said the Jews should not be considered a special case and that the British Empire was already too full of refugees to offer a safe haven to any more.

The Allied countries had several opportunities to save a lot of Jewish people but decided not to. On multiple occasions, Gestapo as well as various countries offered to deport Jews to other countries for varying ransom fees but the US, UK and other countries said no for economical and political reasons.

Just look at the shambles of the Evian conference, which is the most famous example of the above. Some Western leaders were outright racist. The Aussie leader said "as we have no real racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one". Many others said they already had to many refugees coming in.

The Zionist leadership was also not keen. Roosevelts buddy Rosenman said that increasing the number of Jews allowed to enter various countries would "prouce a Jewish problem" in those countries. The Jewish Agency leaders and the United Jewish Appeal were both strongly opposed to Jews going into Western countries, as they wanted them to go to Palestine. The Zionist leaders were simply not interested in mass emigration anywhere but to Palestine.

Perhaps governments and organisations were unaware of the seriosity of the situation but the above things were repeated throughout the war. Governments fearing the economical and political impact of accepting Jewish refugees, and Zionist leaders also opposing anything that didnt include Palestine, perhaps thinking that Germany would eventually back down and continue/expand the Haavara Agreement. (all of this is in John Quigleys book The International Diplomacy of Israel's Founders which is a great and important read)

While obviously the atrocities are not the fault of anyone but Nazi Germany, Western governments and powerful organisations could have done a lot more to save a lot more lives but as usual, as before then and forever on, greed ruled - most countries didnt want to take care of hundreds of thousands of poor people, Britain didnt want to lose control over Palestine (and its resources) and the Zionist organisations that had a lot of say on the matter were not willing to compromise on their demands.

The Allied history of the WW2 has been whitewashed over time. We talk a lot about the heroes, because there were many - some diplomats, some business people, millions of common people actually fighting the war. But we really tend to forget the nasty stuff and the poor decisions, such as those I've mentioned and Wall Street lending Hitler millions and millions before the war, despite knowing very well who he was, and some "neutral" countries like Sweden and Switzerland being very collaborative with the Germans.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Recently watched the harrowing yet effective and powerful The Auschwitz Report.

Moving as you'd expect, and extremely painful but superbly made.

 

[Happy Exile]

This podcast - just 11 minutes - is well worth a listen https://thememorypalace.us/stories-about-the-st-louis/

 

[portlock seagull]

Recently watched the harrowing yet effective and powerful The Auschwitz Report.

Moving as you'd expect, and extremely painful but superbly made.

Primo Levi. What a man.