[News] Hither Green 'burglar' stabbing: Man, 78, arrested

[mikeyjh]

Sure, but that's not my point. My point is it saddens me that someone died. I do have some sympathy for the burglar. I don't think he deserved to die.

Quite - Death penalty for burglary, really? What next, a good shoeing for a 10 year old caught shoplifting? Maybe if that happened to a relative of some posters it would give them some sense of reality.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well you're always entitled to it, but the police don't have to tell you that. I believe they'll try and get you talking before you get legal advice, as they can use what you say to build a case. They will lie to you and tell you it appears better if you're innocent if you talk now, rather than look like you have something to hide. All nonsense, designed to make you talk. Nothing you say to them is likely to help you.

Beneficial for whom? I'm sure they had their reasons for the arrest. I can't see how it helps the old man though.

Beneficial for the coroners court. There will have to be an inquest into the death. The coroners court requires evidence to conclude the verdict. The police had to follow due process, to get the evidence, forensics and establish the cause of death.
The victim had to be questioned under caution, or in the state of shock, he could have blurted out something like, Well he was going to burst out the back door so I wanted to stop him.
I doubt that happened but it could have. That would be manslaughter. If the burglar was stabbed in the back, it could be manslaughter.
As it turns out, all the evidence leads to the victim being attacked, afraid for his life, and he defended himself.

It's all so simple sitting here and chatting about it, but criminal investigations are never simple, and despite your thoughts, not all police lie or lead you up the garden path to set you up. Interviews are recorded as well, and they now use bodycams to protect themselves from false allegations.

 

[m20gull]

Honestly? You think the immediate reaction of a family, having the news broken to them that their son / husband / father has died, would be anger, rather than grief?

However much of a scumbag the deceased would appear to have been, surely that doesn't cancel any empathy we should feel for others grieving? Even his very young children?

Yet you'd 'love' to have been there to witness their grief? To revel in it?

You sound nice.

His family are displaying plenty of anger on Facebook

 

[btnbelle]

Quite - Death penalty for burglary, really? What next, a good shoeing for a 10 year old caught shoplifting? Maybe if that happened to a relative of some posters it would give them some sense of reality.

This family are no ordinary burglars. They have chosen burglary for a career. It is a hazard of the job not the death penalty.

No sympathy from Mr Vincent's family has been heard of, for the many victims who have had their lives turned upside down over so many years. Not least the Osborn Brooks family. I am quite sure Richard Osborn Brooks would rather the whole thing had not happened.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

His family are displaying plenty of anger on Facebook

Are they? I'd have no idea about that.

Either way, its scarcely relevant to the point I made. How they are feeling / responding now, and how they took the news their (scumbag) loved one had been killed, are two very different moments in time. The previous poster suggested he'd love to have witnessed that initial moment, which IMO makes him quite odd, and not especially pleasant.

 

[btnbelle]

Beneficial for the coroners court. There will have to be an inquest into the death. The coroners court requires evidence to conclude the verdict. The police had to follow due process, to get the evidence, forensics and establish the cause of death.
The victim had to be questioned under caution, or in the state of shock, he could have blurted out something like, Well he was going to burst out the back door so I wanted to stop him.
I doubt that happened but it could have. That would be manslaughter. If the burglar was stabbed in the back, it could be manslaughter.
As it turns out, all the evidence leads to the victim being attacked, afraid for his life, and he defended himself.

It's all so simple sitting here and chatting about it, but criminal investigations are never simple, and despite your thoughts, not all police lie or lead you up the garden path to set you up. Interviews are recorded as well, and they now use bodycams to protect themselves from false allegations.

I agree, not all police lie and lead those they arrest up the garden path to set you up. But how do you know which sort of police officer arrested you? Best to be cautious rather than get fitted up for something you haven't done.

 

[drew]

Good point.

I don't think so, they can question people and use what they say as evidence without having to arrest them first.
I doubt that.

Surely depends on whether the person they are questioning is a suspect or a witness.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I agree, not all police lie and lead those they arrest up the garden path to set you up. But how do you know which sort of police officer arrested you? Best to be cautious rather than get fitted up for something you haven't done.

There's at least two from CID who question a murder as well as the uniformed branch who arrested you.


As an addition, three women have replaced the 'tributes' saying he was a 'good man' not a rapist or a murderer. They literally haven't got a clue that burglary of old people is a crime, and could easily have been manslaughter if the old boy had a weak heart.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526


A completely set of different values to the rest of society.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The inquest has opened
http://courtnewsuk.co.uk/stabbed-burglar-was-single-gentleman-of-no-occupation/

 

[Weststander]

This family are no ordinary burglars. They have chosen burglary for a career. It is a hazard of the job not the death penalty.

No sympathy from Mr Vincent's family has been heard of, for the many victims who have had their lives turned upside down over so many years. Not least the Osborn Brooks family. I am quite sure Richard Osborn Brooks would rather the whole thing had not happened.

They're not ordinary burglars. Long prison sentences received for aggravated burglaries, robbery, intimidation, theft and fraud of old folk in their 70's and 80's.

Not opportunistic burglaries of empty homes by junkies, but cold and planned thuggish robberies of the vulnerable.

 

[mikeyjh]

There's at least two from CID who question a murder as well as the uniformed branch who arrested you.


As an addition, three women have replaced the 'tributes' saying he was a 'good man' not a rapist or a murderer. They literally haven't got a clue that burglary of old people is a crime, and could easily have been manslaughter if the old boy had a weak heart.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526


A completely set of different values to the rest of society.

I get where you're coming from but these people, whether we like it or not, are grieving, they're probably not thinking rationally. That said, they probably don't think that burglary is 'bad' and in fairness it isn't so bad as rape or murder. Not condoning anything before people start, just trying to understand how they guys family and friends are thinking. I know the traveller community are not terribly popular right now but they are humans.....

 

[Da Man Clay]

Well you're always entitled to it, but the police don't have to tell you that. I believe they'll try and get you talking before you get legal advice, as they can use what you say to build a case. They will lie to you and tell you it appears better if you're innocent if you talk now, rather than look like you have something to hide. All nonsense, designed to make you talk. Nothing you say to them is likely to help you.

Beneficial for whom? I'm sure they had their reasons for the arrest. I can't see how it helps the old man though.

Yes they do have to tell you. And no they won’t try to get you talking first. Is unlawful and will allow the whole of any case to fall apart - becomes inadmissible evidence. Might have been true pre-pace but that is decades ago.

And yes the arrest does allow him free legal advice. Although he could equally have been provided it for a voluntary attendance interview. It is pretty inconceivable though that at the scene of a person being stabbed to death the person involved isn’t geoing to be arrested.

 

[Weststander]

I get where you're coming from but these people, whether we like it or not, are grieving, they're probably not thinking rationally. That said, they probably don't think that burglary is 'bad' and in fairness it isn't so bad as rape or murder. Not condoning anything before people start, just trying to understand how they guys family and friends are thinking. I know the traveller community are not terribly popular right now but they are humans.....

It's not about Traveller connections. The public would equally despise these vermin whether they be anglo-saxon, black, whatever.

Clearly the vast majority within the Traveller commununity don't rob and intimidate the vulnerable very old.

 

[btnbelle]

I get where you're coming from but these people, whether we like it or not, are grieving, they're probably not thinking rationally. That said, they probably don't think that burglary is 'bad' and in fairness it isn't so bad as rape or murder. Not condoning anything before people start, just trying to understand how they guys family and friends are thinking. I know the traveller community are not terribly popular right now but they are humans.....

Humans who have no respect for others humans.....

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I get where you're coming from but these people, whether we like it or not, are grieving, they're probably not thinking rationally. That said, they probably don't think that burglary is 'bad' and in fairness it isn't so bad as rape or murder. Not condoning anything before people start, just trying to understand how they guys family and friends are thinking. I know the traveller community are not terribly popular right now but they are humans.....

I've just watched BBCSouthEast news which is showing the road because it is in Kent. The 'grieving family' are verbally attacking the neighbours for taking down the flowers.
Mr Osborn Brooks can't go home yet as his house is boarded up, the police are parked on his drive, and his neighbours, also elderly are living in fear of revenge from this family. Most of them are elderly too.

All they want to do is go back to being a quiet road in suburbia, but it's turned into a battlefield.

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/983764398954156035

[tweet]983764398954156035[/tweet]

 

[mikeyjh]

I've just watched BBCSouthEast news which is showing the road because it is in Kent. The 'grieving family' are verbally attacking the neighbours for taking down the flowers.
Mr Osborn Brooks can't go home yet as his house is boarded up, the police are parked on his drive, and his neighbours, also elderly are living in fear of revenge from this family. Most of them are elderly too.

All they want to do is go back to being a quiet road in suburbia, but it's turned into a battlefield.

https://twitter.com/bbcsoutheast/status/983764398954156035

[tweet]983764398954156035[/tweet]

Going on that link, I don't see a 'battlefield', never the less I'll ask you this - Regardless of the circumstances, how would you react to someone tearing down tributes to someone you loved had died? Do you honestly think you'd react by saying, yeah he was a bit of a wrong 'un, fill your boots?

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I get where you're coming from but these people, whether we like it or not, are grieving, they're probably not thinking rationally. That said, they probably don't think that burglary is 'bad' and in fairness it isn't so bad as rape or murder. Not condoning anything before people start, just trying to understand how they guys family and friends are thinking. I know the traveller community are not terribly popular right now but they are humans.....

If your elderly relations had been terrorised by these scum you'd have a different view.

Feel sorry for the kids of the dead scum but only because they've unfortunately been born to a horrible family.

Dead scum can't threaten anyone else, good.

The poor old couple will live with this forever and probably it will have to be elsewhere from friends and family through no fault of their own, they are the only true victims in this.

 

[Triggaaar]

Yes they do have to tell you.

No they don't.

And no they won’t try to get you talking first. Is unlawful and will allow the whole of any case to fall apart - becomes inadmissible evidence. Might have been true pre-pace but that is decades ago.

What? You're saying that every time the police ask someone what's happened, they first have to tell them that they have the right to legal advice? Nonsense.

And yes the arrest does allow him free legal advice.

No one said anything about free legal advice, the question was simply whether they were entitled to legal advice. If the police do not arrest you, but ask you questions, you are entitled to get legal advice before saying anything.

Further reading:
https://www.wellsburcombe.co.uk/solicitor-police-interview/

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Going on that link, I don't see a 'battlefield', never the less I'll ask you this - Regardless of the circumstances, how would you react to someone tearing down tributes to someone you loved had died? Do you honestly think you'd react by saying, yeah he was a bit of a wrong 'un, fill your boots?

Tell you what if, if, one of my family died whilst deliberately breaking into someone's home to rob it I'd never dream of putting ****ing flowers outside that house, Jesus wept.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I get where you're coming from but these people, whether we like it or not, are grieving, they're probably not thinking rationally. That said, they probably don't think that burglary is 'bad' and in fairness it isn't so bad as rape or murder. Not condoning anything before people start, just trying to understand how they guys family and friends are thinking. I know the traveller community are not terribly popular right now but they are humans.....

Then let them build their shrine where they live, and not keep intimidating the neighbours and the poor chap who can't go home. He didn't ask for any of this and will still have to attend the coroner's inquest.
They are taking this to the victims, not the other way around.