History,why do we never learn ?

[Leekbrookgull]

The Middle East,Syria and all that. Hague and others wanted intervention (even my M/P voted for action and i challenged her over it) is anyone surprised ? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25331241

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

So non-lethal aid stopped, saving £20m, but guns and bullets to continue.

All a bit of a mess really ....

 

[beorhthelm]

because for everyone crying "dont get involved" there's someone else crying "get involved". both sides use history to prove their point, and both sides are right and wrong.

 

[Black Rod]

We never learn from history or look at it as a whole - we always just tend to look at what happened in the most recent examples

And unfortunately, the last two have been Iraq and Afghanistan which puts most people off intervention and makes it seem a bad idea. Whereas if you took the example of Kosovo or Sierra Leone then you'd say it works.

 

[dougdeep]

Tell the Russians. I'm sure they will listen.

 

[somerset]

And unfortunately, the last two have been Iraq and Afghanistan which puts most people off intervention and makes it seem a bad idea.

Why?...there are certainly teething problems, and will continue to have for some time to come......but both have achieved the removal of totalitarian dictatorship type regimes and replaced them with a form of democracy whereby on paper everyone has a say and they are designing their own future.......what can be off putting about that?

 

[El Presidente]

Why?...there are certainly teething problems, and will continue to have for some time to come......but both have achieved the removal of totalitarian dictatorship type regimes and replaced them with a form of democracy whereby on paper everyone has a say and they are designing their own future.......what can be off putting about that?

It works.......but only on paper.

 

[El Presidente]

Why?...there are certainly teething problems, and will continue to have for some time to come......but both have achieved the removal of totalitarian dictatorship type regimes and replaced them with a form of democracy whereby on paper everyone has a say and they are designing their own future.......what can be off putting about that?

I've tried and tried and tried, but I can't see the Ashley Barnes angle in your post here. Am I slipping or are you?

 

[Return of the Rev]

History has told us attack Kent before they attack us

 

[somerset]

It works.......but only on paper.

As opposed to what went before......

 

[somerset]

I've tried and tried and tried, but I can't see the Ashley Barnes angle in your post here. Am I slipping or are you?

Too subtle,.... it was the little bit at the end.... "off putting"..... amazed you didnt spot it EP!!

 

[Mellotron]

because for everyone crying "dont get involved" there's someone else crying "get involved". both sides use history to prove their point, and both sides are right and wrong.

This.

WAAAYY too black and white to say "never get involed" or "always get involved" for that matter. SO much more complex than that.

 

[symyjym]

The West encouraged and supported the Syrian uprising and as good as promised them help, and now we are going on about how awful it is. It's a bit like saying to Assad it's perfectly fine for you to be killed but defending yourself is a war crime.

We keep telling Assad to stop but for some reason it is ok for the rebels to continue

 

[Acker79]

Because we look at Hollywood movies and expect them to be entirely accurate. It's completely warped our knowledge of history...

 

[Kumquat]

Why?...there are certainly teething problems, and will continue to have for some time to come......but both have achieved the removal of totalitarian dictatorship type regimes and replaced them with a form of democracy whereby on paper everyone has a say and they are designing their own future.......what can be off putting about that?

The problem is that when a society has been undemocratic for years and years, the ability of the oppressed to run a democratic regime can vary wildly. If you take Eastern Europe, the Czechs and Hungarians had pretty solid underground systems with a plan for how to run the country when communism fell, but others such as Romania less so. The Arab spring countries too especially Egypt and Libya have been in the latter boat. I understand why the west is often in a quandary about intervention. But sometimes all that can be done is to let them make their own decisions, come to a democratic decision and then support them when they do. East Germany is agood example. A completely dysfunctional country which was left to form its own destiny and then when it fell apart West Germany did everything it could to help it turn itself around with immediate unification. Syria is a difficult one. Nobody likes to see the ongoing events but we have to be realistic as to what our role is in the world. It's not our role to police it but when the country's civil war is over, we can help bot financially to help the country restructure and also support them with experience of a democratic system of government.

 

[Cadiz Seagull]

My signature says it all.

I think it's time I changed it.

What do you think about "I'm going to give up procrastinating tomorrow"?

 

[symyjym]

In the Middle East - rather than supporting our distorted idea of democracy, we should be supporting secularism - but instead we have helped overthrow secular leaders in Egypt, Libya and Syria and replace them with the Muslim Brotherhood.

I find it difficult to believe Western governments could be that stupid, perhaps they genuinely are, or perhaps there is something for our countries to gain from instability in the Middle East.

Divide and conquer?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

In the Middle East - rather than supporting our distorted idea of democracy, we should be supporting secularism - but instead we have helped overthrow secular leaders in Egypt, Libya and Syria and replace them with the Muslim Brotherhood.

I find it difficult to believe Western governments could be that stupid, perhaps they genuinely are, or perhaps there is something for our countries to gain from instability in the Middle East.

Sweden has taken thousands of Syrians in, and now Sweden wants the rest of Europe to start helping out a bit. I watched a news item about it, and it just seems some of these troubles have been imported in to Sweden now, with some Syrian Christians being threatened by other Syrians. This whole thing could turn really ugly. It is also getting to the point where Swedish people are also getting fed up with it.

Article about Sweden
http://digitaljournal.com/article/358675

 

[somerset]

In the Middle East - rather than supporting our distorted idea of democracy, we should be supporting secularism - but instead we have helped overthrow secular leaders in Egypt, Libya and Syria and replace them with the Muslim Brotherhood.

I find it difficult to believe Western governments could be that stupid, perhaps they genuinely are, or perhaps there is something for our countries to gain from instability in the Middle East.

Please..,... 'distorted idea of democracy'...? democracy is democracy, its the will of the majority, and if they choose the non-secular route, then so be it..... but at least they had their say in designing their own future. Have you not thought that they just might prefer their version of government, based on their faith?.... its not for me, but if it is arrived at through the democratic process then thats their choice isnt it?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

There are many forms of democracy and our form of "representative democracy" is just one of them, it is no more the will of the majority any more than many dictators in the Middle East were.

The reason democracy cannot work in the Middle East is Islam, it is a very political religion that has a tendency to create extremist groups who will force their views upon others using intimidation and terrorism. So even if only a minority supported an Islamic state, their influence would be greater as we have seen throughout the Arab Spring.

It is not a coincidence that countries like Turkey, Libya and Egypt are the most modern predominantly Muslim nations and they are/were secular. Islamic law is very old and cannot be amended, so it seriously inhibits a countries progression - socially, culturally, economically, politically. Religion has no place in politics in the 21st century, yet all the political unrest were hear of in the Middle East is driven by it. The only way this region will see peace and progression is through secularism, because before it achieves that it cannot achieve democracy.

Top post.