Hillsborough the search for the truth

[Gazwag]

So just to get this straight in my head the thousand odd people without tickets who forced there way in the ground have absolutly no guilt at all now, it was just the emergency services fault

I thought they are now saying there is no proof of this

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

I'm really pleased that the families have officially been told that their loved ones were not responsible. It shoudn't have taken that long.

Unfortunately in those days, the emergency services were not that well trained in dealing with major incidents and mass fatalities. The situation was made worse by the Senior Police Officer in command on the day and some of the appalling decisions that he made. This was compounded further by telling lies and trying to pass the blame onto innocent victims. Also the Coroner has clearly failed to set the right parameters for the inquest.

This case and others such as the Paddington rail crash, Marchioness River Boat Disaster, Piper Alpha and 7/7 etc have been used for many years as case studies when teaching the Senior Management and their staff on the ground how to deal with such events, both at the scene and at the hospitals, mortuaries etc in relation to identifying and recovering victims properly.

Changes in legislation, such as corporate manslaughter certainly help to focus the mind of Senior Management who are trained to deal with major incidents such as these. They are made fully aware that their decisions and actions can mean the difference between many people living or dying.

All the emergency services now spend a great deal of time training together to deal with major incidents and have done for many years. You can only hope that nothing like that happens again. Unfortunately it always takes events such as this to effect change.

I would like to see a new inquest based on the facts as they are now and those that were in charge on the day made accountable.

There is less opportunity for a cover up these days as the emergency services now formally record the discussions and decisions taken at major incidents. Many of the joint command centres and mobile command vehicles have 'fly on the wall' audio and video recording that is 'live' plus someone will be nominated to maintain a written log too. These records are normally impounded as part of the post-incident evidence gathering process.

Much of this is down to lessons learnt at previous major incidents from which more robust protocols for managing incidents were developed. Part of this motivation is also to have hard objective evidence available should a formal inquiry be held.

Back in the '80s there was far less emphasis on training for major incidents but since then there has been a tremendous increase in joint training against national standards. Within many emergency services there is now routine re-assessment of Incident Commanders dealing with large scale disasters so they (rightly) have to maintain their competence. Plus the range of scenarios that are practised are greatly increased since 9/11 to reflect the sort of risks that prevail today. In the context of Hillsborough (and the Bradford fire) it also helps that legislation came about to make the design of sports venues more focused on safety, so that crowds can be managed more readily.

 

[Bwian]

So just to get this straight in my head the thousand odd people without tickets who forced there way in the ground have absolutly no guilt at all now, it was just the emergency services fault

Where has it been stated that a 'thousand odd people without tickets forced their way in the ground'?

Sorry, you're obviously a Sun reader.

 

[The Large One]

So just to get this straight in my head the thousand odd people without tickets who forced there way in the ground have absolutly no guilt at all now, it was just the emergency services fault

You've been thinking differently all this time - 20 years after the Taylor Report?

 

[Bwian]

So just to get this straight in my head the thousand odd people without tickets who forced there way in the ground have absolutly no guilt at all now, it was just the emergency services fault

Read the f***ing report! The Taylor Report in case you are having trouble getting your head around something so obvious. You should be alright on that count, I've heard The Sun will be printing it in installments for people like you.

 

[Surrey_Albion]

Read the f***ing report! The Taylor Report in case you are having trouble getting your head around something so obvious. You should be alright on that count, I've heard The Sun will be printing it in installments for people like you.

Ouch!! thats a bit personal, I am defently not a SUN reader infact I do not read the paper it was a serious question the people who turned up without tickets am I right in saying were not to blame, it because I dont read papers I was asking the question because the response from emergency service etc may have been slow but would ticketless fans getting in not be the catalist for what happened??

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

It was not really the Taylor Report that brought the end to standing. It might have hurried it along but the Taylor Report identified the trend and did not object to standing areas as intrinsically unsafe (although very large terraced areas are). Neither are most of the fans objecting to seating.


http://www.epcollege.com/EPC/media/MediaLibrary/Knowledge%20Hub%20Documents/F%20Inquiry%20Reports/Hillsborough-Taylor-Report.pdf?ext=.pdf

Taylor Report recommend that all-ticket matches should be confined to those at which a capacity or near capacity crowd is expected and that, having so designated them, clubs maintain a firm policy of not selling tickets at the match.

So the Taylor Report is not specifically against all-ticket either.

Times have changed. The causal nature of attending games and meeting your mates there is now gone. I don't miss standing in the rain though, preferable to sitting in puddles.

The Taylor Report has to be looked at in the context of when it was written ie late 80's/early '90s. Most football (and other sports grounds) at that time were out of date and would not comply with modern safety standards now. It is easy to forget just how basic many grounds were and were potential death traps, not having changed for 50 years. Bradford highlighted the shortcomings of an old wooden stand with narrow exit routes, locked exits and poor housekeeping regimes. However the same potential for disaster existed at many other grounds. Plus the lack of training in dealing with serious incidents meant that the reaction to a problem would not be effective either. The people at Hillsborough and Bradford did not die entirely in vain - look at sports stadiums today, ok many are a bit sterile and characterless but most are 'nice' places to be entertained in, hence many more families attend footie in comfort and safety.

 

[The Large One]

Ouch!! thats a bit personal, I am defently not a SUN reader infact I do not read the paper it was a serious question the people who turned up without tickets am I right in saying were not to blame, it because I dont read papers I was asking the question because the response from emergency service etc may have been slow but would ticketless fans getting in not be the catalist for what happened??

Look at the first four words of post no. 165.

 

[jackanada]

Ouch!! thats a bit personal, I am defently not a SUN reader infact I do not read the paper it was a serious question the people who turned up without tickets am I right in saying were not to blame, it because I dont read papers I was asking the question because the response from emergency service etc may have been slow but would ticketless fans getting in not be the catalist for what happened??

there were not a significant number of ticketless fans. OK?

 

[DTES]

Ouch!! thats a bit personal, I am defently not a SUN reader infact I do not read the paper it was a serious question the people who turned up without tickets am I right in saying were not to blame, it because I dont read papers I was asking the question because the response from emergency service etc may have been slow but would ticketless fans getting in not be the catalist for what happened??

I think we can be pretty sure that if the fans were (at all) to blame, this would be shown in the new, thorough, report, even if not in the Taylor report.

However, as David Cameron said "Today’s report is black and white. The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster".

Even if it seems unbelievable to you (your post suggests it does), those examining 400,000 documents have found it's true.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So just to get this straight in my head the thousand odd people without tickets who forced there way in the ground have absolutly no guilt at all now, it was just the emergency services fault

According to today's information correct.

 

[Basil Fawlty]

Kelvin Mackenzie has finally apologised, too little, too late. Well said Trevor Hicks.

 

[Surrey_Albion]

I think we can be pretty sure that if the fans were (at all) to blame, this would be shown in the new, thorough, report, even if not in the Taylor report.

However, as David Cameron said "Today’s report is black and white. The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster".

Even if it seems unbelievable to you (your post suggests it does), those examining 400,000 documents have found it's true.

Thanks, I really am not in anyway trying to wind up I just dont know all the facts hence asking and I read the taylor report when it first came out and really dont remember, I just think if there were no ticketless fans maybe it wouldnt have happened not suggesting I dont beleive the new report etc (again because I havent read it) I was just asking genuine questions and you have answered by not enough ticketless fans so thanks

 

[ROSM]

So just to get this straight in my head the thousand odd people without tickets who forced there way in the ground have absolutly no guilt at all now, it was just the emergency services fault

show me where these 1000 odd people are documented using proven evidence streams such as todays report or the Taylor report?

 

[perseus]

there were not a significant number of ticketless fans. OK?

This is ironic. In most games at this time there would be thousands of ticketless fans but NOT this one. It was semi-final and fans needed tickets to get in. The Sun made the story up!

The Police knew the fans had tickets and opened a gate to let them into the ground to avoid a horrendous queues at the turnstiles after the match had kicked off. But they let them in the wrong part.

At White Hart Lane when Albion visited in the late seventies the same thing could conceivably have happened. The Police were worried but every way they lost. To turn the ticketless fans away would have caused mayhem and to let them in would cause congestion. Open stand terracing did not work on that day because the people in front would not let the people behind have any room. So even if the numbers are monitored carefully, you can still get crushes.

 

[Surrey_Albion]

show me where these 1000 odd people are documented using proven evidence streams such as todays report or the Taylor report?

Im sure this has been answered , I didnt know hence I asked on a discussion board and have been informed, fair enough with a little bit of hostility but I was not aware of facts I asked for facts people replied hence the word : forum

As a forum I can freely comment as long as I do not cause offense I can also form my own personal feeling or thoughts for something, I thought there were thousands but apparently there is proof there was not

 

[Falkor]

Im sure this has been answered , I didnt know hence I asked on a discussion board and have been informed, fair enough with a little bit of hostility but I was not aware of facts I asked for facts people replied hence the word : forum

As a forum I can freely comment as long as I do not cause offense I can also form my own personal feeling or thoughts for something, I thought there were thousands but apparently there is proof there was not

from todays report

153. Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor's findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

That Sun front page is shocking. They need to grovel. A full front page apology.

I think you have a long wait ?

 

[Leekbrookgull]

That Sun front page is shocking. They need to grovel. A full front page apology.

I think you have a long wait ?

 

[Surrey_Albion]

from todays report

Thanks Falkor