Hillsborough the search for the truth

[kevo]

Remember this game well on the box,also i remember the ground was packed solid and i can assure you there was thousands of fans outside the gates trying to barge through.I would dread to think how many people were in that end as it was way way more than it should,ve been and still loads trying to get in.

Liverpool fans in my opinion were a major factor in this terrible tragedy,you can't blame the police for this im afraid,nobody will put there hands up and admit mistakes though.

You can also see clearly in the footage that there is loads of space in the pens on either side of the central one where people were crushed. The problem was the fans all headed for the central pen and couldn't get out. That could have been prevented.

 

[ROSM]

Here.....

http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf

and here......

http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/releases/hillsborough/me8934.pdf

People who state firm and vociferous opinions about Hillsborough without reading these aren't worth listening to unless they were there. As a Wednesday fan the Taylor Report makes for uncomfortable reading but I recommend you do - it's a fascinating document and very thorough.

Yes they are. I don't think the late arrival is disputed and these docs are very detailed. It's the comment about Liverpool and everton being somehow unique in arriving late and allegedly doing so to deliberately barge in. They aren't saints but as pointed out, the simple instruction of 've in place 15 mins before kick off' was just a pious hope.

Traffic was a major factor in delays as it was the year before and years after (the league cup final replay, FA cup semi final replay for boro and chesterfield etc)

 

[Bwian]

Remember this game well on the box,also i remember the ground was packed solid and i can assure you there was thousands of fans outside the gates trying to barge through.I would dread to think how many people were in that end as it was way way more than it should,ve been and still loads trying to get in.

Liverpool fans in my opinion were a major factor in this terrible tragedy,you can't blame the police for this im afraid,nobody will put there hands up and admit mistakes though.

How the f*** can you 'assure us that there were thousands of fans outside the gates trying to barge through'. You were at home watching tv, not exactly the best place for seeing what was happening outside the ground was it?

 

[Working class pride]

As is again lost on everyone arguing, nobody tried to kill anyone, therefore there really isn't any "Justice" to be had, just sadness.

It was an accident. Yes the police obviously lied and covered up their mistakes. But really, is that a shock?

What happened in Cardiff where no policeman has been convicted, now that was a true scandal, but Hillsborough was an accident made worse by policemen who decided to lie instead of just tell the truth.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

As is again lost on everyone arguing, nobody tried to kill anyone, therefore there really isn't any "Justice" to be had, just sadness.

It was an accident. Yes the police obviously lied and covered up their mistakes. But really, is that a shock?

What happened in Cardiff where no policeman has been convicted, now that was a true scandal, but Hillsborough was an accident made worse by policemen who decided to lie instead of just tell the truth.

You've inadvertently stated the bleedin' obvious, so why the Hell can't you see it?!

 

[The Large One]

Remember this game well on the box,also i remember the ground was packed solid and i can assure you there was thousands of fans outside the gates trying to barge through.I would dread to think how many people were in that end as it was way way more than it should,ve been and still loads trying to get in.

Liverpool fans in my opinion were a major factor in this terrible tragedy,you can't blame the police for this im afraid,nobody will put there hands up and admit mistakes though.

So, like Mr Woody above - your opinion is right, and Lord Chief Justice Taylor is wrong?

 

[Working class pride]

You've inadvertently stated the bleedin' obvious, so why the Hell can't you see it?!

So the complaint is that the police did a poor job, people died and some in the police lied to cover up a mistake.

Well mate, that is not half as bad as what the police were up to in Cardiff and it was an ex Chief of the Met who said " the definition of a good police force is one where half of them are not dishonest, and the MET is honest.. just"

Bottom line is still the bottom line, nobody but nobody tried to hurt or kill anyone at Hillsborough. There is no "justice" to be had unless you call suing a state run organisation that you and me are paying for is your idea of justice.

I know that is what the likes of Mansfield QC wants to do to add to his fortune in fees he made out of the deaths of those who dies in Bloody Sunday, but really, I can do without paying that bloke even more money to state the bleedin obvious. I would rather give the cash straight to the families of the dead if any money is going to be spent by the taxpayer (me & you).

The police individuals that are still alive who lied could perhaps be stripped of their pension but even if we tried then you could hear the trade union (sorry police federation) moan and whinge and threaten all sorts.

 

[trueblue]

Hills borough the search for the truth

Couple of points. Even if there were ticketless fans in vast numbers (which is disputed), there's a very simple way to combat that problem which shouldn't have been beyond the wit of the police/organisers and that is to check tickets a short distance from the ground and only allow fans with tickets into that exclusion zone. Hardly rocket science. It's not hard to seal off a ground which would have road closures around it anyway.

Secondly, of course there were more factors than just the police to blame, namely a culture that had been created by hooliganism in the past which contributed to the inappropriate police response. However, if anyone really thinks that the cover up which followed is no cause for concerned then this really has become a very strange country. Senior officers changing witness statements, a coroner declaring a time of death for all the fatalities that conveniently prevented a true examination of the emergency response, a national newspaper being influenced to publish a pack of lies to divert attention and no apology or admission of fault to this day by anyone in a position of authority. That stinks. If your wages are paid by the taxpayer, then it's a basic tenet of a democratic system that you must be accountable for your actions to the electorate. Yes, the police have a very difficult job and the football climate was different in the 80s (although even the most peaceful fan at that time will have bad memories of being herded and pushed around like an animal - the aggression and provocation wasn't always entirely one way). But that's no excuse for people in power conspiring to conceal the truth without ever being called fully to account. This isn't China.

 

[pornomagboy]

Hills borough the search for the truth

@SkySportsNews: 23 years on the truth about the Hillsborough disaster may finally be revealed - we're live from Merseyside throughout the day #SSN

 

[ROSM]

So the complaint is that the police did a poor job, people died and some in the police lied to cover up a mistake.

Well mate, that is not half as bad as what the police were up to in Cardiff and it was an ex Chief of the Met who said " the definition of a good police force is one where half of them are not dishonest, and the MET is honest.. just"

Bottom line is still the bottom line, nobody but nobody tried to hurt or kill anyone at Hillsborough. There is no "justice" to be had unless you call suing a state run organisation that you and me are paying for is your idea of justice.

I know that is what the likes of Mansfield QC wants to do to add to his fortune in fees he made out of the deaths of those who dies in Bloody Sunday, but really, I can do without paying that bloke even more money to state the bleedin obvious. I would rather give the cash straight to the families of the dead if any money is going to be spent by the taxpayer (me & you).

The police individuals that are still alive who lied could perhaps be stripped of their pension but even if we tried then you could hear the trade union (sorry police federation) moan and whinge and threaten all sorts.

If you are satisfied that an organisation in authority was inherently and institutionally dishonest then that is for you.

You are right, nobody goes to work to kill people - but when that does happen then there should be analysis/investigation as to whether or not the actions they took that may have led to this were criminal (either criminally negligent or tantamount to manslaughter).

But decisions taken by many authority types (the police, the coroner, the civil service and governments of all hues) have prevented that investigation from happening in an open and transparent manner.

And dont forget - the need for the Mansfields of this world is generally because wrongdoing and cover ups prevented more timely (and dare I say it, cheaper) actions from taking place.

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

the game should never of been played there

Hillsborough; Spurs v Wolves. F.A.Cup semi-final, 1981 Hillsborough

 

[Twinkle Toes]

So the complaint is that the police did a poor job, people died and some in the police lied to cover up a mistake.

Well mate, that is not half as bad as what the police were up to in Cardiff and it was an ex Chief of the Met who said " the definition of a good police force is one where half of them are not dishonest, and the MET is honest.. just"

Bottom line is still the bottom line, nobody but nobody tried to hurt or kill anyone at Hillsborough. There is no "justice" to be had unless you call suing a state run organisation that you and me are paying for is your idea of justice.

I know that is what the likes of Mansfield QC wants to do to add to his fortune in fees he made out of the deaths of those who dies in Bloody Sunday, but really, I can do without paying that bloke even more money to state the bleedin obvious. I would rather give the cash straight to the families of the dead if any money is going to be spent by the taxpayer (me & you).

The police individuals that are still alive who lied could perhaps be stripped of their pension but even if we tried then you could hear the trade union (sorry police federation) moan and whinge and threaten all sorts.

You continue to confuse justice with compensation. Perhaps we'll all have to wait a while to see how many of the victims' families take a similar approach to yourself, but I'd wager all the vast majority want is for a senior representative in Government &/or The Yorkshire Constabulary to say "sorry". It's my view that the many families & individuals affected by the events on that terrible afternoon at Hillsborough need to honour their dead & achieve a sense of closure to their grieving - and not look to gain such through financial reimbursement & the purchasing of consumer goods.

 

[wellquickwoody]

the game should never of been played there

Hillsborough; Spurs v Wolves. F.A.Cup semi-final, 1981 Hillsborough

Not a personal attack on you, but are we now going to blame the FA for the venue choice? Unfortunately this disaster happened, 23 years ago, and no amount of hand wringing and campaigning will change this.

I will be surprised if we do not hear calls for more financial compensation for the victims families by the end of today.

 

[The Large One]

Not a personal attack on you, but are we now going to blame the FA for the venue choice? Unfortunately this disaster happened, 23 years ago, and no amount of hand wringing and campaigning will change this.

When you miss the point, you miss it by quite a distance, don't you?

The campaigning - and has been since the justice groups were set up - is for a recognition from the authorities that, in blaming Liverpool fans for the tragedy, they lied, covered-up and deliberately spread mis-information.

 

[DTES]

First news trickling out and it's ugly. Blood taken from bodies to test for alcohol. If none, they checked for criminal records.

Says Tony Evans of the Times, via the Guardian. This could be a horrible, horrible day.

 

[ROSM]

Not a personal attack on you, but are we now going to blame the FA for the venue choice? Unfortunately this disaster happened, 23 years ago, and no amount of hand wringing and campaigning will change this.

I will be surprised if we do not hear calls for more financial compensation for the victims families by the end of today.

The FA has some responsibility here but given the issue seen at that match (with no scousers to be seen anywhere) and the 1988 semi final held at the same venue, then it really shouldnt have been that difficult for South Yorkshire police to have been better prepared.

 

[wellquickwoody]

The campaigning - and has been since the justice groups were set up - is for a recognition from the authorities that, in blaming Liverpool fans for the tragedy, they lied, covered-up and deliberately spread mis-information.

I repeat, I will be surprised if we do not hear calls for more financial compensation for the victims families by the end of today.

 

[Gullys Cats]

I think it was a
Mixture of things that caused this tragedy, at the end of the day it shouldn't of happend.


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[The Large One]

I repeat, I will be surprised if we do not hear calls for more financial compensation for the victims families by the end of today.

So what? You wish to repeat something not high on their agenda - just yours.

This has never been about financial compensation - they wish to receive justice - irrespective of what your value system leads you to believe. And even if it was - they would have a good case.

 

[ROSM]

Says Tony Evans of the Times, via the Guardian. This could be a horrible, horrible day.

I think those who have posted on this thread should perhaps come back here in say 24 hours and care to review what they have said and see if they still stand by their comments.