Hillsborough Inquest

[Dandyman]

" It was the beginning of the creation of a false narrative that sought to blame the Liverpool fans for what happened and sought to conceal the truth about your failings and the failings of other senior South Yorkshire police officers"

Rajiv Menon QC to former Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield who has admitted he lied previously and that he breached his duty of care.

Do the good people of NSC agree with Mr Menon ?

 

[Lord Bracknell]

I don't believe that Duckenfield was alone in setting the ball rolling to blame Liverpool supporters. Margaret Thatcher's refusal to accept criticism of the police meant that the scapegoating of football fans by establishment figures was given legitimacy at the highest level. To blame Duckenfield now for EVERYTHING will let a lot of individuals off the hook.

 

[Lush]

I've never understood why a lot of factors coming together can't be 'to blame'

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I don't believe that Duckenfield was alone in setting the ball rolling to blame Liverpool supporters. Margaret Thatcher's refusal to accept criticism of the police meant that the scapegoating of football fans by establishment figures was given legitimacy at the highest level.

South Yorkshire police patently had a Get Out Of Jail card bestowed on them by Thatcher as a reward for their actions against 'The Enemy Within' five years earlier.

From Wikipedia...

"In 1991, the South Yorkshire Police paid compensation of £425,000 to thirty-nine miners who were arrested during the 'Battle of Orgreave'. This was due to the fact that those arrested were charged with the wrong offences in law." Not to mention the widespread brutal unaccountable assaults on countless other miners. Many of the bussed-in police officers from the South of England had a shiny new state-of-the-art VHS video recorder christened 'Arthur' that was paid for out of their limitless overtime.

C*nts.

 

[Dandyman]

I don't believe that Duckenfield was alone in setting the ball rolling to blame Liverpool supporters. Margaret Thatcher's refusal to accept criticism of the police meant that the scapegoating of football fans by establishment figures was given legitimacy at the highest level. To blame Duckenfield now for EVERYTHING will let a lot of individuals off the hook.

Agree and I think Menon will demonstrate that the web of lies and deceit goes far further than Duckenfield appalling as he is.

 

[The Large One]

I don't believe that Duckenfield was alone in setting the ball rolling to blame Liverpool supporters. Margaret Thatcher's refusal to accept criticism of the police meant that the scapegoating of football fans by establishment figures was given legitimacy at the highest level. To blame Duckenfield now for EVERYTHING will let a lot of individuals off the hook.

Reading the updates on the Liverpool Echo website, it seems to be implied that Duckenfield started that ball rolling. This was then picked up on with the narrative which followed. He is saying his superior officer was furious with him for telling Graham Kelly that fans were to blame. However, once that ball did start rolling, some very high-up people made no effort to stop it.

Despite certain admissions at his inquiry, including saying he lied about Liverpool fans forcing the gate, his selective memory leads me to believe he has been 'coached' to admit the minimum possible culpability. He still believes, for instance, that Liverpool fans are to blame.

 

[Quinney]

From my experience of following the Albion away in the 80's and 90's South Yorkshire Police were always the worst, and the findings from the inquiry are doing nothing to change that view.

 

[jackanada]

South Yorkshire police patently had a Get Out Of Jail card bestowed on them by Thatcher as a reward for their actions against 'The Enemy Within' five years earlier.

From Wikipedia...

"In 1991, the South Yorkshire Police paid compensation of £425,000 to thirty-nine miners who were arrested during the 'Battle of Orgreave'. This was due to the fact that those arrested were charged with the wrong offences in law." Not to mention the widespread brutal unaccountable assaults on countless other miners. Many of the bussed-in police officers from the South of England had a shiny new state-of-the-art VHS video recorder christened 'Arthur' that was paid for out of their limitless overtime.

C*nts.

Many a new and recent recruit cut their teeth beating the shit out of miners. Having a fair percentage of your front line officers seeing the public as an enemy to be subdued by force cannot have helped.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

He had the chance to come clean, but didn't - for whatever reason. I don't think he is 100% responsible (for the tragedy or the subsequent cover-ups, and everything that goes with it) - more a combined effort for a lot of people from different groups that decided to stick together and keep schtum.

Despicable scenes...

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I've never understood why a lot of factors coming together can't be 'to blame'

Such as?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

From my experience of following the Albion away in the 80's and 90's South Yorkshire Police were always the worst, and the findings from the inquiry are doing nothing to change that view.

They have the blood of more than Liverpool on their hands.

 

[Lower West Stander]

Many a new and recent recruit cut their teeth beating the shit out of miners. Having a fair percentage of your front line officers seeing the public as an enemy to be subdued by force cannot have helped.

It wasn't just South Yorkshire though. Anyone who went to a football ground in the 80s was likely to have seen police piling in to fans enclosures and whacking them for no apparent reason. Some of the police behaviour needed to be seen to be believed.

But fans were not entirely blameless and the culture at a football ground was very different to what it is now. Whilst I have no doubt that South Yorkshire police are entirely culpable here, we shouldn't forget that fan behaviour could be pretty poor too. This smacks to me of exploitation of fan reputation more than anything else.

 

[glasfryn]

what did they call the Liverpool fans "scum"
when actually the scum was sitting in the cabinet office
God can you imagine if they had twitter around then ....................it would have been carnage

 

[jackanada]

It wasn't just South Yorkshire though. Anyone who went to a football ground in the 80s was likely to have seen police piling in to fans enclosures and whacking them for no apparent reason. Some of the police behaviour needed to be seen to be believed.

But fans were not entirely blameless and the culture at a football ground was very different to what it is now. Whilst I have no doubt that South Yorkshire police are entirely culpable here, we shouldn't forget that fan behaviour could be pretty poor too. This smacks to me of exploitation of fan reputation more than anything else.

Officers were bussed in from across the country to beat up miners, not just from South Yorkshire. There have always been dubious coppers fond of bashing some heads but Thatch giving them all a massive pay rise and unlimited overtime to beat up the working classes marked a sea change in the relationship between police and public.

 

[ElderlyWilliam]

Ugh

South Yorkshire police patently had a Get Out Of Jail card bestowed on them by Thatcher as a reward for their actions against 'The Enemy Within' five years earlier.

From Wikipedia...

"In 1991, the South Yorkshire Police paid compensation of £425,000 to thirty-nine miners who were arrested during the 'Battle of Orgreave'. This was due to the fact that those arrested were charged with the wrong offences in law." Not to mention the widespread brutal unaccountable assaults on countless other miners. Many of the bussed-in police officers from the South of England had a shiny new state-of-the-art VHS video recorder christened 'Arthur' that was paid for out of their limitless overtime.

C*nts.

I am not quite sure where to start with this one. I will try.
I spent 30 years with Sussex Police .
I always, yes always, treated people in the manner I would have expected my a mum to be dealt with. I found that a very decent and reasonable benchmark to use. I worked with some fantastic people in my 30 years who only ever wanted to do good for people. I also met some incredible and inspiring victims and some hugely brave witnesses. Meeting people when they need urgent asistance and have who have never spoken to a police officer before was a unique and remarkable experience.
I never beat up a miner. Indeed, I never beat anyone up. I appreciate this might come as a disappointment to some here, but it is factually true. As I was employed as a Police Officer I am sure there are some here who will not believe me.
I also went on the Miners Dispute. I hated it, as did many of my colleagues. Seeing the mining communities destroyed by the Tory Government was awful, but the reception we got virtually everywhere, Kent apart, was humbling. For example, the invitation from the striking miner in Clipstone to go and see his allotment because we got on so well, or the group of working miners who wanted us to visit the pit face were stand out memories. They were remarkable people who were fighting for what they wanted and I still never voted Tory. I never have.
To use a five letter word at the end of your post Tom Hark Preston Park is offensive and wrong and I hope you might just reflect on how that leaves someone who has done his level best to do positive things in his career feel.
And I also am afraid to disappoint you all. I never bought a video camera, but I have never forgotten those communities.
As for Dukenfield, he is a disgrace. What went on at Hillsborough that day was a disgrace. Please don't judge me by his actions.
EW

 

[glasfryn]

Ugh

I am not quite sure where to start with this one. I will try.
I spent 30 years with Sussex Police .
I always, yes always, treated people in the manner I would have expected my a mum to be dealt with. I found that a very decent and reasonable benchmark to use. I worked with some fantastic people in my 30 years who only ever wanted to do good for people. I also met some incredible and inspiring victims and some hugely brave witnesses. Meeting people when they need urgent asistance and have who have never spoken to a police officer before was a unique and remarkable experience.
I never beat up a miner. Indeed, I never beat anyone up. I appreciate this might come as a disappointment to some here, but it is factually true. As I was employed as a Police Officer I am sure there are some here who will not believe me.
I also went on the Miners Dispute. I hated it, as did many of my colleagues. Seeing the mining communities destroyed by the Tory Government was awful, but the reception we got virtually everywhere, Kent apart, was humbling. For example, the invitation from the striking miner in Clipstone to go and see his allotment because we got on so well, or the group of working miners who wanted us to visit the pit face were stand out memories. They were remarkable people who were fighting for what they wanted and I still never voted Tory. I never have.
To use a five letter word at the end of your post Tom Hark Preston Park is offensive and wrong and I hope you might just reflect on how that leaves someone who has done his level best to do positive things in his career feel.
And I also am afraid to disappoint you all. I never bought a video camera, but I have never forgotten those communities.
As for Dukenfield, he is a disgrace. What went on at Hillsborough that day was a disgrace. Please don't judge me by his actions.
EW

as a ex prison officer I can understand exactly what you are saying, but you are unusual in being a straight up sort of guy.
I worked with lots of police while I was at the Scrubs court duties and so on and I can say quite honestly I did not like one of them, I also done detatched duty at Winston Green and the state of the Birmingham six when they came in was a disgrace(especially as they were innocent).
I could go on with some events after I left the Prison service right up to now, the erosion of respect for the police has been caused by their own actions and modern technology, people can take photo's with a phones now, so everybody who is in the public eye has to be squeaky clean, and the few are causing the public outcry because they live in the past and think they can do this because of who they are.
we did have a few bad apples in the Prison service , they normally surcumbed to the pressure of working with criminals all day and left or were shown the door.
my suggestion would be to sell all the cars they have and go back to bikes, saves money and you can see more of whats going on rather than sailing around in squad cars at 60mph, they could then get off the bikes and actually speak to people and start to get that respect back.

 

[jackanada]

Ugh

I am not quite sure where to start with this one. I will try.
I spent 30 years with Sussex Police .
I always, yes always, treated people in the manner I would have expected my a mum to be dealt with. I found that a very decent and reasonable benchmark to use. I worked with some fantastic people in my 30 years who only ever wanted to do good for people. I also met some incredible and inspiring victims and some hugely brave witnesses. Meeting people when they need urgent asistance and have who have never spoken to a police officer before was a unique and remarkable experience.
I never beat up a miner. Indeed, I never beat anyone up. I appreciate this might come as a disappointment to some here, but it is factually true. As I was employed as a Police Officer I am sure there are some here who will not believe me.
I also went on the Miners Dispute. I hated it, as did many of my colleagues. Seeing the mining communities destroyed by the Tory Government was awful, but the reception we got virtually everywhere, Kent apart, was humbling. For example, the invitation from the striking miner in Clipstone to go and see his allotment because we got on so well, or the group of working miners who wanted us to visit the pit face were stand out memories. They were remarkable people who were fighting for what they wanted and I still never voted Tory. I never have.
To use a five letter word at the end of your post Tom Hark Preston Park is offensive and wrong and I hope you might just reflect on how that leaves someone who has done his level best to do positive things in his career feel.
And I also am afraid to disappoint you all. I never bought a video camera, but I have never forgotten those communities.
As for Dukenfield, he is a disgrace. What went on at Hillsborough that day was a disgrace. Please don't judge me by his actions.
EW

Thanks for that. I am aware my posts come across as anti police, though it is a role when performed with integrity I have the utmost reflect for. One of my granddads was in the police for thirty years and he remains the most decent and liberal man I have known.

 

[vegster]

" It was the beginning of the creation of a false narrative that sought to blame the Liverpool fans for what happened and sought to conceal the truth about your failings and the failings of other senior South Yorkshire police officers"

Rajiv Menon QC to former Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield who has admitted he lied previously and that he breached his duty of care.


Do the good people of NSC agree with Mr Menon ?

It is not all about Duckenfield, there were many other police at all levels involved. There was testimony a week or two back from a fairly senior officer who was effectively told at a meeting the day after the " Official Police line " that it was drunken, ticketless, Liverpool fans who caused all of this. He said he was bewildered as he knew that that was not the case but was told to toe the line or else.

Some officers at various levels tried to speak out at the time and were ignored or silenced. There has been heartbreaking testimony from some officers in the ground who could see what was happening and tried to get the right kind of help and to alleviate the situation. I think it's wrong to tar all the police with the same brush, in a "service " such as the Police there is going to be loyalty to the force even if it is misguided.
Think of all the talk recently of whistleblowers in the Social Services and NHS and see how they are targeted and marginalised even today and then try to imagine what happens to a good copper at Hillsborough 26 years ago ?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Ugh

I am not quite sure where to start with this one. I will try.
I spent 30 years with Sussex Police .
I always, yes always, treated people in the manner I would have expected my a mum to be dealt with. I found that a very decent and reasonable benchmark to use. I worked with some fantastic people in my 30 years who only ever wanted to do good for people. I also met some incredible and inspiring victims and some hugely brave witnesses. Meeting people when they need urgent asistance and have who have never spoken to a police officer before was a unique and remarkable experience.
I never beat up a miner. Indeed, I never beat anyone up. I appreciate this might come as a disappointment to some here, but it is factually true. As I was employed as a Police Officer I am sure there are some here who will not believe me.
I also went on the Miners Dispute. I hated it, as did many of my colleagues. Seeing the mining communities destroyed by the Tory Government was awful, but the reception we got virtually everywhere, Kent apart, was humbling. For example, the invitation from the striking miner in Clipstone to go and see his allotment because we got on so well, or the group of working miners who wanted us to visit the pit face were stand out memories. They were remarkable people who were fighting for what they wanted and I still never voted Tory. I never have.
To use a five letter word at the end of your post Tom Hark Preston Park is offensive and wrong and I hope you might just reflect on how that leaves someone who has done his level best to do positive things in his career feel.
And I also am afraid to disappoint you all. I never bought a video camera, but I have never forgotten those communities.
As for Dukenfield, he is a disgrace. What went on at Hillsborough that day was a disgrace. Please don't judge me by his actions.
EW

I sincerely apologise for any offence my post may have caused you [MENTION=5965]ElderlyWilliam[/MENTION] , you're obviously a very decent bloke. Which makes it all the more of a tragedy that a significant number of your colleagues at the time conspired during the Miners Strike, Hillsborough and beyond to bring the force into disrepute, bring unnecessary suffering to the Hillsborough families and allow themselves to be used as Thatcher's private army to brutalise mining communities trying to safeguard the future of their communities.

 

[beorhthelm]

i know people want to project some class war on Hillsborough, but something is oft overlooked. the authorities reaction to the events wasnt a crack down on football fans, but to rippout the fences and improve stadiums.