[Misc] Here We Go Again - Breaking News Florida Shooting At High School

[BadFish]

I'd have more respect for them if they just admitted that owning guns is more important to them than their kids not being shot dead.

There are many other countries around the world that have found balance in this discussion. There are many shades of grey between everyone being able to own what they want with the flimsiest of licensing and control and removing all guns completely. Sadly the half wits will keep the discussion at the extremes and will not entertain discussion into solutions. As you say they see this as more important than their children getting shot.

It really is mental.

 

[seagulls4ever]

Not always so.

Egyptian Army removed the Muslim Brotherhood because of what that party represented.

Other nations have also had coups and returned to democracy.

Ah yes, Egypt, the beacon of justice, where supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood were sentenced to imprisonment or death in mass trials involving hundreds at a time, often for simply being present at pro-democracy events.

 

[BBassic]

....But not buy an alcoholic drink!!!

That one always struck me as a bit weird.

"You want a Bud lite? Are you 21? No? Sorry can't help you but can I interest you in an assault rifle?"

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Can 10/50 states really be defined as 'plenty'?

Using the the narrow definition of 'four or more killed', according to the page sourced below, 40 states have experienced a mass shooting event, including Hawaii. I think using a broader definition, probably every state has.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/mass-shootings-in-america/

The link you provided is interesting, mainly because it highlights the ten states where no mass shootings have occurred.

If you look at the states not linked to any mass shootings:

1. Wyoming
Wyoming has the highest number of registered guns per capita of any state in America. For every 1,000 residents, there are 195.7 guns, about three times the rate of second-place D.C. That's 114,052 registered firearms in a state with a population of only 582,658 people.

4. New Mexico
New Mexico comes in at number four, with 40.5 guns for every 1,000 residents. That's 84,471 registered firearms among 2,085,287 people.

6. Idaho
Idaho comes in at number six, with 24.2 guns for every 1,000 residents. That's 39,019 registered firearms among 1,612,136 people.


So the no.1 gun owning state in the US has never had a mass shooting, in fact 3 out of the top 6 gun owning states never have.

Does that not suggest that perhaps its a states to state thing when it comes to responsible gun owners and that states gun culture that can impact such incidents?

 

[BadFish]

I was wondering about the correlation between gun restrictions and gun deaths. I don't think anyone is suggesting the US ban guns or stop your average Jo from owning them. the discussion needs to be about greater restrictions on who owns them.

I found this about Richard Florida that seems to be pretty well cited (although i confess i haven't checked them all as yet).

When economist Richard Florida took a look at gun deaths and other social indicators, he found that higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness didn’t correlate with more gun deaths. But he did find one telling correlation: States with tighter gun control laws have fewer gun-related deaths. (Read more at Florida’s “The Geography of Gun Deaths.”)

This is backed by other research: A 2016 review of 130 studies in 10 countries, published in Epidemiologic Reviews, found that new legal restrictions on owning and purchasing guns tended to be followed by a drop in gun violence — a strong indicator that restricting access to guns can save lives.

Of course this is all academic as the NRA will argue restrictions. Even though polls suggest that most of their members support it - 74% according to this article. http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...ra-members-back-background-checks-all-gun-pu/

The question here appears to me to be: Who are the NRA representing when they continue to lobby for guns to be sold with very limited restrictions?

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Not always so.

Egyptian Army removed the Muslim Brotherhood because of what that party represented.

Other nations have also had coups and returned to democracy.

The coup in Egypt happened because the muslim brotherhood were threating the power and wealth of the military. It was nothing to do with protecting democracy.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

The coup in Egypt happened because the muslim brotherhood were threating the power and wealth of the military. It was nothing to do with protecting democracy.

I think it was a little more than that sorry.

The fact they are now listed as a terrorist group says it all about the Brotherhood.

 

[seagulls4ever]

The link you provided is interesting, mainly because it highlights the ten states where no mass shootings have occurred.

If you look at the states not linked to any mass shootings:

1. Wyoming
Wyoming has the highest number of registered guns per capita of any state in America. For every 1,000 residents, there are 195.7 guns, about three times the rate of second-place D.C. That's 114,052 registered firearms in a state with a population of only 582,658 people.

4. New Mexico
New Mexico comes in at number four, with 40.5 guns for every 1,000 residents. That's 84,471 registered firearms among 2,085,287 people.

6. Idaho
Idaho comes in at number six, with 24.2 guns for every 1,000 residents. That's 39,019 registered firearms among 1,612,136 people.


So the no.1 gun owning state in the US has never had a mass shooting, in fact 3 out of the top 6 gun owning states never have.

Does that not suggest that perhaps its a states to state thing when it comes to responsible gun owners and that states gun culture that can impact such incidents?

Remember, that's using an extremely narrow definition, which can be down to chance (the amount of people who are shot who are killed). Using a broader definition (four or more killed or injured), just looking at 2017, nearly every state experienced a mass shooting event. The mass shootings are not due to the guns themselves, but due to a mindset (and giving headline media coverage to these events doesn't help, as that's what the perpetrators want), which is facilitated by the availability of guns. Gun crime in general in the US is a serious problem, whatever form it takes. I read that people believe that the reason people believe mass shootings have not occurred in Wyoming is because it has the smallest population, and so the rural lifestyle doesn't lend itself to mass shooting type events. But I don't know the intricacies of it all, I'm not an expert. I certainly think gun culture has a big role to play, I agree with that. But the widespread availability and 'right to bear arms' seems to me to be a big factor in that gun culture, irrespective of state. Guns are weapons of death - they are designed to kill - so I feel uncomfortable with their ownership being considered normal.

https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data/2017

Some statistics for what has occurred so far in 2018:



http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I was wondering about the correlation between gun restrictions and gun deaths. I don't think anyone is suggesting the US ban guns or stop your average Jo from owning them. the discussion needs to be about greater restrictions on who owns them.

I found this about Richard Florida that seems to be pretty well cited (although i confess i haven't checked them all as yet).



Of course this is all academic as the NRA will argue restrictions. Even though polls suggest that most of their members support it - 74% according to this article. http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...ra-members-back-background-checks-all-gun-pu/

The question here appears to me to be: Who are the NRA representing when they continue to lobby for guns to be sold with very limited restrictions?

https://www.deseretnews.com/top/1428/0/10-states-with-the-strictest-gun-laws.html

That list suggests there's no correlation between strict gun laws and fewer gun deaths.

California has the strictest gun laws in the US yet has a huge amount of mass shootings and gun deaths compared to Wyoming that has more guns per head of population and yet no mass shootings.

Maybe the NRA are representing the likes of the people of Wyoming?

 

[BadFish]

https://www.deseretnews.com/top/1428/0/10-states-with-the-strictest-gun-laws.html

That list suggests there's no correlation between strict gun laws and fewer gun deaths.

California has the strictest gun laws in the US yet has a huge amount of mass shootings and gun deaths compared to Wyoming that has more guns per head of population and yet no mass shootings.

Maybe the NRA are representing the likes of the people of Wyoming?

I cannot make head nor tail of your post, your link doesn't include any stats about California's mass shootings and gun deaths and you seem to be conflating two different ideas for your comparison i.e. strict gun laws in California and number of guns per head in Wyoming.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Remember, that's using an extremely narrow definition, which can be down to chance (the amount of people who are shot who are killed). Using a broader definition (four or more killed or injured), just looking at 2017, nearly every state experienced a mass shooting event. The mass shootings are not due to the guns themselves, but due to a mindset (and giving headline media coverage to these events doesn't help, as that's what the perpetrators want), which is facilitated by the availability of guns. Gun crime in general in the US is a serious problem, whatever form it takes. I read that people believe that the reason people believe mass shootings have not occurred in Wyoming is because it has the smallest population, and so the rural lifestyle doesn't lend itself to mass shooting type events. But I don't know the intricacies of it all, I'm not an expert. I certainly think gun culture has a big role to play, I agree with that. But the widespread availability and 'right to bear arms' seems to me to be a big factor in that gun culture, irrespective of state. Guns are weapons of death - they are designed to kill - so I feel uncomfortable with their ownership being considered normal.

The thing people won't mention for fear of being labelled racist is that wherever there is a higher black population the incidents of general gun deaths is far higher unfortunately.

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/

This list shows the often vast difference between gun victims based on race based on figures in 2015.

This is why when people make suggestions to limit deaths they are missing the point. Banning assault rifles really won't impact the number of deaths by much at all given the majority of deaths are by basic hand guns.

It's just an assault rifle makes a story seem so much more scary to non-gun people.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I cannot make head nor tail of your post, your link doesn't include any stats about California's mass shootings and gun deaths and you seem to be conflating two different ideas for your comparison i.e. strict gun laws in California and number of guns per head in Wyoming.

The link to US mass killings was on another posters link.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/mass-shootings-in-america/


The bottom line is having a lot of guns in a population of people no matter how big or small will still throw up similar death statistics by head of population % if the cultures are the same.

Obviously the people of Wyoming are a much higher quality of people than those in California.

 

[BadFish]

The thing people won't mention for fear of being labelled racist is that wherever there is a higher black population the incidents of general gun deaths is far higher unfortunately.

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/

This list shows the often vast difference between gun victims based on race based on figures in 2015.

This is why when people make suggestions to limit deaths they are missing the point. Banning assault rifles really won't impact the number of deaths by much at all given the majority of deaths are by basic hand guns.

It's just an assault rifle makes a story seem so much more scary to non-gun people.

The article i posted earlier agreed with your point about assault rifles. It also highlighted correlation between poverty and lack of education.I would suggest that this is the link to the higher black population you mention as statistically they are still more likely to live in poorer areas and be less educated.

 

[seagulls4ever]

The thing people won't mention for fear of being labelled racist is that wherever there is a higher black population the incidents of general gun deaths is far higher unfortunately.

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/firearms-death-rate-by-raceethnicity/

That's hardly surprising, considering black individuals are generally less wealthy, and less wealth is correlated with greater crime. Quite why you decided to pick out that particular population, I'm not sure. Gun crime is a big problem, irrespective of race or ethnicity.

 

[Not Andy Naylor]

The link you provided is interesting, mainly because it highlights the ten states where no mass shootings have occurred.

If you look at the states not linked to any mass shootings:

1. Wyoming
Wyoming has the highest number of registered guns per capita of any state in America. For every 1,000 residents, there are 195.7 guns, about three times the rate of second-place D.C. That's 114,052 registered firearms in a state with a population of only 582,658 people.

4. New Mexico
New Mexico comes in at number four, with 40.5 guns for every 1,000 residents. That's 84,471 registered firearms among 2,085,287 people.

6. Idaho
Idaho comes in at number six, with 24.2 guns for every 1,000 residents. That's 39,019 registered firearms among 1,612,136 people.


So the no.1 gun owning state in the US has never had a mass shooting, in fact 3 out of the top 6 gun owning states never have.

Does that not suggest that perhaps its a states to state thing when it comes to responsible gun owners and that states gun culture that can impact such incidents?

But these are ten of the most thinly-populated states, so the odds against mass shootings must be proportionately higher.

 

[seagulls4ever]

But these are ten of the most thinly-populated states, so the odds against mass shootings must be proportionately higher.

Yes, that must be a factor. Wyoming regularly ranks in the top 10 for gun crime per person.

 

[BadFish]

The link to US mass killings was on another posters link.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/mass-shootings-in-america/


The bottom line is having a lot of guns in a population of people no matter how big or small will still throw up similar death statistics by head of population % if the cultures are the same.

Obviously the people of Wyoming are a much higher quality of people than those in California.

I don't think that anything you have posted has proved that to be the bottom line so I remain skeptical.

The more I look into it the more it seems that Wyoming is right up there in terms of gun deaths.

Depends on how you count seems to be about right to me https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/wonkblog/mass-shooting-definition/

Can you clarify the point you are trying to make with all these statistics?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

There's plenty of states in the US that have never had a mass shooting.

What’s the definition of a mass shooting? More than 5? 10?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

But these are ten of the most thinly-populated states, so the odds against mass shootings must be proportionately higher.

Why?

Per head of population figures consider such things. It factors in smaller vs larger to break it down as a %.

It's not like a state with 2 million people can't have a building with 20 people in it same as state with 20 million people having a room with 20 people in it.

Mass shootings rely more on a captive audience than anything. No matter how small or big the state those places exist everywhere.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Why?

Per head of population figures consider such things. It factors in smaller vs larger to break it down as a %.

It's not like a state with 2 million people can't have a building with 20 people in it same as state with 20 million people having a room with 20 people in it.

Mass shootings rely more on a captive audience than anything. No matter how small or big the state those places exist everywhere.

You worry me.