[Misc] Here We Go Again - Breaking News Florida Shooting At High School

[Stat Brother]

Not only that its giving teachers concealed guns. This isn't therefore a deterrent at all, it doesn't put off or stop the gun men/women going into schools with their assault rifles it means the teachers get the chance to play Rambo.

How long before a pupil gets hold of one of those guns?

 

[BadFish]

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/firearm_mortality/firearm.htm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...st-and-loosest-states/?utm_term=.5e9894239868

Your first links suggests that California are 8th from bottom in terms of firearm deaths as a % of population. This suggests that the reason that California has a high firearms death rate because of a high population rather than its gun laws. In terms of % of population it appears that Californian gun restrictions are working quite well.

Connecticut has the second stricter gun laws and is 5th from bottom in terms of gun deaths as a % of the population.

New Jersey is third strictest and comes in 8th from bottom

looking at your two links it appears that Louisiana has the most lax gun laws and has the 3rd highest gun deaths as a % of population. Mississippi comes in at 2nd in terms of lax gun restrictions and at 4th for gun deaths as a % of population.

Arizona is 3rd for lax gun restriction and in the top half for gun deaths as a % of population.

Obviously the sample size used in your two articles is not big enough to make a sound conclusion, and the Washington POst article states that there is still much debate about the existence of a correlation between gun deaths and stricter gun laws. However it must be said that the evidence you provided for your statistic suggesting that there is no correlation (using an even smaller sample of one) does not really support your assertion.

 

[BadFish]

Not only that there's jobs and local expenditure for the politicians to think about.
Extricating America from it's gun addiction boils down to just that, they are addicted and it has seeped into all aspects of American life, even those most opposed.

How many teachers are siding with their pupils:-

Florida's main pension fund for state workers and teachers has a half-million-dollar stake in the company that makes the rifle used in the shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/florida-workers-pension-fund-invested-gun-manufacturers-53259067

They have a very long way to go, but it surely has to begin with some intent. I may be being a tad optimistic here but things seem different this time. Perhaps it is coincidence and my exposure has been to be different media but I feel like perhaps common sense is finally gaining a little bit of traction.

Ridiculous I know, I apologise for my ridiculous ideas.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Not only that its giving teachers concealed guns. This isn't therefore a deterrent at all if its not visible, it doesn't put off or stop the gun men/women going into schools with their assault rifles it means the teachers get the chance to play Rambo.

I'd suggest it's not about being a deterrent. It's about being a form of self defence. Self defence is a massive thing in the US. 24 of the states have the stand your ground law to ensure people defending themselves have protection by the law in these cases.

Most people who commit mass killings rarely try to get away. They either go down in a hail of police bullets or take their own lives.

When you have people with that mindset waiting around for the cops to arrive isn't an option for a lot of people.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Your first links suggests that California are 8th from bottom in terms of firearm deaths as a % of population. This suggests that the reason that California has a high firearms death rate because of a high population rather than its gun laws. In terms of % of population it appears that Californian gun restrictions are working quite well.

Connecticut has the second stricter gun laws and is 5th from bottom in terms of gun deaths as a % of the population.

New Jersey is third strictest and comes in 8th from bottom

looking at your two links it appears that Louisiana has the most lax gun laws and has the 3rd highest gun deaths as a % of population. Mississippi comes in at 2nd in terms of lax gun restrictions and at 4th for gun deaths as a % of population.

Arizona is 3rd for lax gun restriction and in the top half for gun deaths as a % of population.

Obviously the sample size used in your two articles is not big enough to make a sound conclusion, and the Washington POst article states that there is still much debate about the existence of a correlation between gun deaths and stricter gun laws. However it must be said that the evidence you provided for your statistic suggesting that there is no correlation (using an even smaller sample of one) does not really support your assertion.

The per head of pop line in this case doesn't paint an accurate picture for example Alaska has a higher death by gun % because the stats include suicides.

California has far more crime and gang violence than Alaska does as such more deaths due to such circumstances occur. I don't think anyone would suggest Alaska is a more dangerous a place to live than many places in California.

 

[BadFish]

I'd suggest it's not about being a deterrent. It's about being a form of self defence. Self defence is a massive thing in the US. 24 of the states have the stand your ground law to ensure people defending themselves have protection by the law in these cases.

Most people who commit mass killings rarely try to get away. They either go down in a hail of police bullets or take their own lives.

When you have people with that mindset waiting around for the cops to arrive isn't an option for a lot of people.

Giving people with that ‘mindset’ high powered firearms isn’t an option for a lot of people also. Sadly most of those people appear to live outside the US.

 

[BadFish]

The per head of pop line in this case doesn't paint an accurate picture for example Alaska has a higher death by gun % because the stats include suicides.

California has far more crime and gang violence than Alaska does as such more deaths due to such circumstances occur. I don't think anyone would suggest Alaska is a more dangerous a place to live than many places in California.

None of these stats paint an accuarate picture, they are using too small a sample size and as you point out they do not take into account all the factors involved in gun crime.

This begs the question: Why do you keep wheeling them out as proof of something?

 

[Stat Brother]

They have a very long way to go, but it surely has to begin with some intent. I may be being a tad optimistic here but things seem different this time. Perhaps it is coincidence and my exposure has been to be different media but I feel like perhaps common sense is finally gaining a little bit of traction.

Ridiculous I know, I apologise for my ridiculous ideas.

I'm finding it hard to shake the feeling this will be another 'Occupy' movement.

 

[BadFish]

I'm finding it hard to shake the feeling this will be another 'Occupy' movement.

Thanks for pissing on my bonfire. My optimism was shaky to say the least and now it is extinguished.

 

[Stat Brother]

Thanks for pissing on my bonfire. My optimism was shaky to say the least and now it is extinguished.

Sorry.

Even if this campaign gets a foothold I'm sure they'll quickly become undermined and split from 'within'

Worryingly it's only possible savour would be if some more young white males decide, very soon, gun violence is the answer to their issues.

 

[A1X]

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Giving people with that ‘mindset’ high powered firearms isn’t an option for a lot of people also. Sadly most of those people appear to live outside the US.

And most are city people. That's another factor, city opinion v rural opinion.

I'm sure my feeling very comfortable and at ease around guns comes from having spent a lot of time in the country in and around them.

Conversely city friends have some irrational fear of them despite never having held or been around one.

 

[Simster]

Conversely city friends have some irrational fear of them despite never having held or been around one.

Irrational fear? Some loony has just been allowed to slaughter 17 school kids or whatever. What exactly is "irrational" about that?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

None of these stats paint an accuarate picture, they are using too small a sample size and as you point out they do not take into account all the factors involved in gun crime.

This begs the question: Why do you keep wheeling them out as proof of something?

They are proof that the diatribe the anti-gun types trot out isn't always as it seems. Its proof these people only turn out when it's some mental kid killing a bunch of people.

There's one culture in the US which takes a huge amount of lives each day and each year and yet that never gets called out.

Let's face it, other countries have high gun ownership but not the same issues with gun violence. It's the culture that is the issue, not the guns.

You yourself live in a country with 24 guns per 100 people. Wouldn't you say that's quite high?

 

[BadFish]

And most are city people. That's another factor, city opinion v rural opinion.

I'm sure my feeling very comfortable and at ease around guns comes from having spent a lot of time in the country in and around them.

Conversely city friends have some irrational fear of them despite never having held or been around one.

You are missing the vital part of our last few exchanges. The person of that 'mindset' with the gun.

I too have grown up around guns. My brother is still a keen shooter and has a number of shotguns for hunting. I feel perfectly comfortable around him with his guns. The vital part of our discussion and the part that would make me nervous, is also in my opinion the crux of safe gun ownership. We should attempt to keep persons of that 'mindset' (my reading of your definition here was a nut case who was intent of killing children at a school and then turning the gun on himself) away from guns as much as possible.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Irrational fear? Some loony has just been allowed to slaughter 17 school kids or whatever. What exactly is "irrational" about that?

That it's not that common an occurrence?

You're statistically more likely to be shot dead by an African American than some deranged shooter.

People should have a greater fear of African American men than people with assault rifles when you look at the statistics. But you'd not think like that would you?

Would you have an irrational fear of black males knowing how many people that group kills?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

You are missing the vital part of our last few exchanges. The person of that 'mindset' with the gun.

I too have grown up around guns. My brother is still a keen shooter and has a number of shotguns for hunting. I feel perfectly comfortable around him with his guns. The vital part of our discussion and the part that would make me nervous, is also in my opinion the crux of safe gun ownership. We should attempt to keep persons of that 'mindset' (my reading of your definition here was a nut case who was intent of killing children at a school and then turning the gun on himself) away from guns as much as possible.

Well as with this case, the FBI failed to respond to people's warnings in an appropriate way. This may have been preventable.

I believe that's the most positive sign I've seen that the community are now actually going to law enforcement agencies and reporting these types of things where previously they may have just turned a blind eye.

This is the most important message a government can get across to everyone, report report report. They also need to reinforce to their agencies to investigate, investigate, investigate.

 

[BadFish]

They are proof that the diatribe the anti-gun types trot out isn't always as it seems. Its proof these people only turn out when it's some mental kid killing a bunch of people.

There's one culture in the US which takes a huge amount of lives each day and each year and yet that never gets called out.

Let's face it, other countries have high gun ownership but not the same issues with gun violence. It's the culture that is the issue, not the guns.

You yourself live in a country with 24 guns per 100 people. Wouldn't you say that's quite high?

Okay so while discussing something with me you are simultaneously arguing with 'anti-gun types'?

You are probably right about the culture but it is the culture that clings to the 2nd amendment and fights any kind of gun control. I would agree that it is the culture needs to change and hopefully it will. how will we know when things have changed? I would say that one of the first indications of this will be that laws will be passed. Hopefully soon after this school shootings will reduce.

I think the number of guns in Australia is reasonable given our culture and laws. Everything seems to work pretty well and I have no complaints.

 

[BadFish]

Well as with this case, the FBI failed to respond to people's warnings in an appropriate way. This may have been preventable.

I believe that's the most positive sign I've seen that the community are now actually going to law enforcement agencies and reporting these types of things where previously they may have just turned a blind eye.

This is the most important message a government can get across to everyone, report report report. They also need to reinforce to their agencies to investigate, investigate, investigate.

Next to 'reply with quote' is 'reply' i think this might be the button for you

 

[Simster]

That it's not that common an occurrence?

But that's the point, it is.

When you say "That it's not that common an occurrence?", that's the sort of comment you might attribute to somebody nervous about seeing a Muslim on a tube wearing a rucksack, and it would be a fair enough comment on your part when you look at the statistics. However, look at the stats here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Sort by "Total" downwards and there are dozens of third world countries that have a lower "firearm related deaths" rate than the USA.

So what good can possibly come of having firearms on the streets? That's why people are fearful or guns, and it's perfectly rational.