No doubt this has been discussed before but the evidence for brain damage caused by sporting activities is becoming increasingly alarming. I was reading an article regarding Joe Kinnear https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/articles/cn000nzggyjo Personally while I realise just how integral heading is to the game I also think that to continue to expect players to use their heads is rather unethical. Just wondering what the feeling is on banning heading the ball from the game.
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[Football] Heading and brain damage
- Thread starter nickjhs
- Start date
B-right-on
Living the dream
Boxing. MMA. Rugby.......
There's plenty of other sports with much more violent physical clashes.
Seems odd to pick on football with very limited and relatively minor study behind the accusations. Yes it's sad that JK died and had dementia, but tens of thousands of others die with dementia and there's no real scientific proof of it coming from football. The article said that the Consultant "intimated" it could be from the heading, that's not evidence.
There's got to be hundreds of thousands of ex-Pro footballers around so a proper study should be done before any actions taken.
There's plenty of other sports with much more violent physical clashes.
Seems odd to pick on football with very limited and relatively minor study behind the accusations. Yes it's sad that JK died and had dementia, but tens of thousands of others die with dementia and there's no real scientific proof of it coming from football. The article said that the Consultant "intimated" it could be from the heading, that's not evidence.
There's got to be hundreds of thousands of ex-Pro footballers around so a proper study should be done before any actions taken.
US Seagull
Well-known member
It's definitely a concern, and as much as I wouldn't want to change football, if it really is dangerous to at least some players then we really ought to do something about it. It definitely warrants more study and maybe banning it more some of the youngest age groups would be prudent for the time being.
And yes, we can do whataboutisms here about other sports that have it potentially even worse. That doesn't really help footballers with brain damage to know that it might be even worse in boxing or rugby.
I do wonder, as much as it would trigger outrage amongst purists, if some kind of protective head gear could be engineered as an option, as least for those that might want to use it. And yes, I know that concussion isn't fixed by any old helmet, it would need to be the right kind. And I know it could have potential effects on the heading performance of players, either negatively or positively. It's not an easy problem, or we probably would have just solved it already.
And yes, we can do whataboutisms here about other sports that have it potentially even worse. That doesn't really help footballers with brain damage to know that it might be even worse in boxing or rugby.
I do wonder, as much as it would trigger outrage amongst purists, if some kind of protective head gear could be engineered as an option, as least for those that might want to use it. And yes, I know that concussion isn't fixed by any old helmet, it would need to be the right kind. And I know it could have potential effects on the heading performance of players, either negatively or positively. It's not an easy problem, or we probably would have just solved it already.
- Oct 17, 2008
- 14,486
I’ll just preface this by saying I don’t mean to seem callous or unfeeling towards people, or the friends and family of anyone who goes on to suffer (or even, regrettably, pass away from) CTE and related issues such as dementia.
I am certainly no medical expert (“not a brain surgeon!”) but I’d say for a layperson I’ve done a relatively decent amount of reading about CTE and Traumatic Brain Injuries due to an interest in professional wrestling.
I was really into wrestling in the mid-to-late 90’s “hardcore wrestling” period, where wrestlers would repeatedly clobber each other in the head full force with legitimate steel chairs and other objects night after night, not to mention the usual bumps and risky manoeuvres involved every single match.
The sheer number of premature deaths precipitated by CTE/TBI’s is - excuse the phrase - mind blowing. (https://shorturl.at/S3shW)
Then there are enormous numbers in Ice Hockey, Rugby and American Football simply from contact (falling, tackling, smashing). And that’s without even going into actual combat sports such as MMA and Boxing where repetitive strikes to the head are an absolute given. In comparison to the above sports, and others, CTE/TBI studies in association football are still relatively sparse.
But it’s plain to anyone with common sense that repeatedly hitting your head on something hard isn’t good for you.
In my view, there is an accepted risk in playing any sport where the risk factors involved are a matter of common sense. Which in turn brings me to what I consider the important issue; parental/caregiver responsibility towards minors who can’t consent to the risk on a “common sense” basis, due to their adolescence.
Eliminating heading from Association Football at all levels, in my opinion, would hugely damage the quality and fabric of the sport. Those wishing to compete in a sport with comparatively minimal risks to brain injury should have a number of other options to choose from, and these should be available in schools.
Again, I reiterate that there are actually very few documented cases of retired football players evidencing CTE either pre or post-mortem, and much further study is needed in this area. Due to the lack of data, reported CTE/TBI studies actually show confirmed cases to be well, well below the national average for dementia patients at a national level. Because this is such a new area of study with such a small sample size in clinical study, we really just don’t know the scales involved.
One final thing, it is wrong to say changes haven’t been made since the days of Kinnear. For example, footballs are now considerably lighter when wet and made of a “friendlier” material and concussion protocols are in place along with immediate stoppages for head injuries.
More study needed, but the press needn’t get hysterical about this and turn the odd very sad case into the latest crusade.
I am certainly no medical expert (“not a brain surgeon!”) but I’d say for a layperson I’ve done a relatively decent amount of reading about CTE and Traumatic Brain Injuries due to an interest in professional wrestling.
I was really into wrestling in the mid-to-late 90’s “hardcore wrestling” period, where wrestlers would repeatedly clobber each other in the head full force with legitimate steel chairs and other objects night after night, not to mention the usual bumps and risky manoeuvres involved every single match.
The sheer number of premature deaths precipitated by CTE/TBI’s is - excuse the phrase - mind blowing. (https://shorturl.at/S3shW)
Then there are enormous numbers in Ice Hockey, Rugby and American Football simply from contact (falling, tackling, smashing). And that’s without even going into actual combat sports such as MMA and Boxing where repetitive strikes to the head are an absolute given. In comparison to the above sports, and others, CTE/TBI studies in association football are still relatively sparse.
But it’s plain to anyone with common sense that repeatedly hitting your head on something hard isn’t good for you.
In my view, there is an accepted risk in playing any sport where the risk factors involved are a matter of common sense. Which in turn brings me to what I consider the important issue; parental/caregiver responsibility towards minors who can’t consent to the risk on a “common sense” basis, due to their adolescence.
Eliminating heading from Association Football at all levels, in my opinion, would hugely damage the quality and fabric of the sport. Those wishing to compete in a sport with comparatively minimal risks to brain injury should have a number of other options to choose from, and these should be available in schools.
Again, I reiterate that there are actually very few documented cases of retired football players evidencing CTE either pre or post-mortem, and much further study is needed in this area. Due to the lack of data, reported CTE/TBI studies actually show confirmed cases to be well, well below the national average for dementia patients at a national level. Because this is such a new area of study with such a small sample size in clinical study, we really just don’t know the scales involved.
One final thing, it is wrong to say changes haven’t been made since the days of Kinnear. For example, footballs are now considerably lighter when wet and made of a “friendlier” material and concussion protocols are in place along with immediate stoppages for head injuries.
More study needed, but the press needn’t get hysterical about this and turn the odd very sad case into the latest crusade.
Cheeky Monkey
Well-known member
- Jul 17, 2003
- 23,865
Other sports are irrelevant, there is more than enough documented evidence and individual case studies to suggest that heading a football, whether today or in the 1970s, is damaging to brain health. An inconvenient truth for many unfortunately.
This I’m afraid. There will be further research (pretty sure this is already happening) but we’ll see restrictions at least on the amount of heading across the game in the next few years (particularly in training at all levels and probably completely for younger age groups) I suspect.
Well it's not totally irrelevant, his point is that other sports also carry an element of risk of long-term damage to your health. Repeatedly banging your head against anything is not good, be it walls, fists, old sodden leather footballs or even the modern variety.
Quite rightly people are pointing this out, and no one disputes the evidence. So what do we do? Personally I would not want to see heading removed from football in the sense of seeing it banned so that 'headball' becomes an offence along with 'handball'. Maybe the health aspects will see game tactics evolve so that the idea of pumping crosses into the box so that some big lump can head them will disappear as no one will want to do it. Maybe it should be banned from kids' football so that they can concentrate on ball skills (and then those kids might never want to head a ball as they've found more effective ways of playing). Both those are fine, but an outright ban on adults? Not for me.
The important thing is that people know the risks. If you play football you may be required to head the ball, and if you do it too much your health may suffer. Probably like most people when I was a boy/young man no one ever mentioned this and obviously it's good that it's now acknowledged and that the authorities are trying to mitigate the risks. The other side of the coin is that not everyone who has spent a lot of their youth heading footballs does end up with dementia (heading was a big part of my game), and if you are worried about your health from heading footballs then perhaps the sport isn't for you.
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
There is already a ban on the training of heading in the younger age groups, and in my experience that translates to very few headers in actual matches.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,013
you cant have it and not train heading. it'll be detrimental to youngest players as they get no practice, we'll find out in a few years they dont know how to head. either it goes or stays all together. i wonder if other countries are having issue with it, or just UK?
Cheeky Monkey
Well-known member
- Jul 17, 2003
- 23,865
^^^ it's not ideal in any activity, so I'm not sure making a case about it being a risk in other sports is relevant.
As for the future, I'd suggest teaching the art of shouldering the ball away, deft flick up with the left or right shoulder...
As for the future, I'd suggest teaching the art of shouldering the ball away, deft flick up with the left or right shoulder...
Next season from under 9 and below, heading has been completely banned. They've also removed throw ins and the kids will have to pass or dibble in instead to reduce the number of balls going head height. Over the next couple of seasons, this rule is then being phased in for under 10's and under 11's. I imagine after that it will be phased in for older ages and then eventually to adults. I think it will be banned altogether in a few years - that's certainly what I'm hearing around grassroots and youth football.
I'm not a medical expert at all so I'm not going to say whether this is right or young or how bad/not bad heading is as I just don't know but you have to trust the people making these decisions have done it on sound medical guidance. At these ages, the kids rarely head the ball anyway so the ban is clearly being brought in with a view to getting them used to not heading the ball as they get older and are more likely to head it.
Having witnessed my teams playing in youth leagues where heading has been banned over the last couple of seasons, I will say the ban has actually caused more injuries than heading did though! The kids contort their bodies into all sorts of weird and wonderful positions to avoid heading the ball and you end up with a lot of boots to faces and heads!
Mustafa II
Well-known member
It would be mad if heading a football repeatedly DIDN'T cause brain injury.
The problem is that we could remove heading from the game altogether, which would change the sport as we know it, or adapt the game to make it safe.
You could ban heading for the developing brains of children - but the problem here is that it would give an advantage to countries who don't ban it, leaving the countries that do with less skilled headerers (is that a word?) of the ball.
MY solution would be to introduce head protection. It would take some time to gain acceptance until it became 'cool', but it would only take a few high profile player endorsements. If the head protection became commonplace, then it would become widely manufactured and also available to poor communities around the world.
The problem is that we could remove heading from the game altogether, which would change the sport as we know it, or adapt the game to make it safe.
You could ban heading for the developing brains of children - but the problem here is that it would give an advantage to countries who don't ban it, leaving the countries that do with less skilled headerers (is that a word?) of the ball.
MY solution would be to introduce head protection. It would take some time to gain acceptance until it became 'cool', but it would only take a few high profile player endorsements. If the head protection became commonplace, then it would become widely manufactured and also available to poor communities around the world.
As with most things in society, there's a safety vs freedom aspect. Drinking causes brain damage. Eating fast food causes all sorts of damage. The microplastics you get into the body when bathing in the ocean causes damage. Not to mention getting old - its fecking lethal.
Ban it for U18 if needed. Then they're adults and can make a decision for themselves: is it worth the risks?
Professional football is high risk high reward. There's not a lot of professions in the world where you're expected to suffer as many work related injuries, some that can cause a lot of problems for the rest of your life. Then there's the psychological pressure of the game, the amount of players addicted to painkillers, the easy & affordable access to drugs, booze, gambling. Its a fun gig though, and you earn good money and get to sleep with all the fine ladies.
If work is put into it, it won't take long until the balls could be made with some cool material or whatever that stops the heaviest of impacts, or some freaky high tec headband or something. Surely there must be current or future technological solutions. Banning headers would be a shame, its a huge part of the game.
Ban it for U18 if needed. Then they're adults and can make a decision for themselves: is it worth the risks?
Professional football is high risk high reward. There's not a lot of professions in the world where you're expected to suffer as many work related injuries, some that can cause a lot of problems for the rest of your life. Then there's the psychological pressure of the game, the amount of players addicted to painkillers, the easy & affordable access to drugs, booze, gambling. Its a fun gig though, and you earn good money and get to sleep with all the fine ladies.
If work is put into it, it won't take long until the balls could be made with some cool material or whatever that stops the heaviest of impacts, or some freaky high tec headband or something. Surely there must be current or future technological solutions. Banning headers would be a shame, its a huge part of the game.
dsr-burnley
Well-known member
- Aug 15, 2014
- 2,625
If heading were to be banned, I think they would also have to ban playing the ball over head height - just like in 5-a-side. Otherwise (for example) I reckon a prime tactic for a corner would be to cross it into the box as they do now, knowing that the defenders can't head it away - they would have to let it drop to chest height and then hack away until someone gets a boot on it. Not pretty!
Withdean South Stand
Well-known member
- Mar 2, 2014
- 646
The evidence is already clear and plain as day.
- Oct 12, 2022
- 2,688
For me, follow the medical evidence, if the evidence is conclusive then perhaps start by ensuring that coaching includes the potential long-term effects of heading the ball and let players make their own minds up.
If the evidence becomes completely overwhelming and there’s an epidemic of former players suffering these issues, then perhaps phase it out.
The problem here is that it’s easy in the abstract saying “let the individual decide” but the peer pressure while playing to put your head in the way is going to lead to players doing it, and I for one want our squad to have long happy and healthy lives once their playing days are over.
It’s also very different to discuss the abstract idea of long-term health conditions than cope with your partner or parent living with these symptoms.
It might be that players being aware is enough that they don’t put their heads in where the velocity of the ball is high, but the scorn they’d receive from every old-school pundit would cause heavy pressure for them to continue as they always have. Toxic masculinity is alive, well and still gets time on the airwaves.
Some sports I watch for the risk, MotoGP for example, where the risk of broken bones (or worse) is high coming off a motorcycle at 220mph, and the bravery of the rider and the risk they’re taking is integral to the enjoyment of watching.
Football isn’t a sport I watch for the risk to the players, football would look different without heading, but it could exist without it and still be perfectly enjoyable. To me banning heading is something that would cause complete uproar at the point of doing it, and three seasons later people would barely remember it used to be part of the game.
If the evidence becomes completely overwhelming and there’s an epidemic of former players suffering these issues, then perhaps phase it out.
The problem here is that it’s easy in the abstract saying “let the individual decide” but the peer pressure while playing to put your head in the way is going to lead to players doing it, and I for one want our squad to have long happy and healthy lives once their playing days are over.
It’s also very different to discuss the abstract idea of long-term health conditions than cope with your partner or parent living with these symptoms.
It might be that players being aware is enough that they don’t put their heads in where the velocity of the ball is high, but the scorn they’d receive from every old-school pundit would cause heavy pressure for them to continue as they always have. Toxic masculinity is alive, well and still gets time on the airwaves.
Some sports I watch for the risk, MotoGP for example, where the risk of broken bones (or worse) is high coming off a motorcycle at 220mph, and the bravery of the rider and the risk they’re taking is integral to the enjoyment of watching.
Football isn’t a sport I watch for the risk to the players, football would look different without heading, but it could exist without it and still be perfectly enjoyable. To me banning heading is something that would cause complete uproar at the point of doing it, and three seasons later people would barely remember it used to be part of the game.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think they could ban the ball going over head height. Define 'head height' for a start. Will it be a fixed height? Also they'll have to make the goals smaller as any shot into the top corner will be disallowed. VAR will have a field day! As it would if they just disallowed heading. "The ball's in the net, but did it brush his head on the way in? Was his head in a natural position?"
Curious Orange
Punxsatawney Phil
It needs a lot more research, and not just with former professional players but amateur ones too. Professional players are most likely exposed to a greater amount of impacts due to their playing and training schedules, but they are also a far smaller cohort within the total population of football players. Is there an even distribution of brain injury across the general population, or is it more prevalent amongst the professional ranks? And what percentage of players are actually effected, and does this reduce as changes in materials, training regimes and concussion protocols are introduced? How does this then compare to other sports and the general population?
We aren't going to know anything definitively for many years, so a complete ban now seems like overkill to me.
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DarrenFreemansPerm
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
DFP Junior played in his first tournament on Sunday, he’s in the minis (age 6) and no heading is allowed.
I can’t say I’m disappointed about it, I’ve been playing football for about 35 years and I’ve never particularly got on with heading the ball, last night I was defending a corner and headed it clear, my head felt like I’d tried kissing an express train.
I can’t say I’m disappointed about it, I’ve been playing football for about 35 years and I’ve never particularly got on with heading the ball, last night I was defending a corner and headed it clear, my head felt like I’d tried kissing an express train.
Mellor 3 Ward 4
Well-known member
I know someone fairly well who was a former professional player (played in the late 60s throughout the 70s into the early 80s as a centre half)
He didn't play for Brighton and I have no intention of naming him on here.
He is now suffering from dementia and without doubt heading (the much heavier leather) football has bought this on.
He is being helped by both the FA and PFA.
He didn't play for Brighton and I have no intention of naming him on here.
He is now suffering from dementia and without doubt heading (the much heavier leather) football has bought this on.
He is being helped by both the FA and PFA.