[Football] Has Graham Bitten Off More Than He Can Chew?

[Swansman]

Oh, did my post suggest to you I thought the quality of player was irrelevant? I suppose I should have been clearer on that. I was more pointing out that de Zerbi has got a very similar squad scoring more goals.

Yeah. "We laid the blame at the players feet for a long time but De Zerbi has burst that myth" sort of suggested that the players aren't relevant

De Zerbi does have a similar (identical) squad to the one in the beginning of the season, when the team was scoring a decent amount of goals. It is true that the team has went on to score even more goals per game after De Zerbi. It is also true that the team gets less points per game (which some hold down to meeting all-of-a-sudden unbeatable teams like Spurs and Arsenal, but if opposition is to be taken into account, you might argue playing Everton, Southampton and fecking Middlesbrough might have some impact on the number of goals scored as well).

 

[Silverhatch]

I don’t blame Potter for the manner in which he left. He had almost no choice in the matter.

I’ve committed myself to my current company and the goals we have for the next 5 years. I have absolutely no intention of leaving and am a very principled type of guy.

But if a competitor offers me five times the salary, I will HAVE to go. It will better secure my family’s future, which is the reason I work so hard in the first place.

Potter was incredible for us and I think a really nice guy with it. Chelsea are the ones we should hate, because Graham Potter did what 99.9% of people would do.

I’m revelling in Chelsea struggling, not Potter.

The fact we’ve come out of it pretty well is even better of course.

Potter isn’t the issue. Chelsea and their culturally inappropriate, cash-spraying consortium led by Todd is. No problem with Potter moving to a ‘big’ club but, as said so many times, the timing was criminal. Hopefully, Chelsea suffer this season and we finish well above them. Don’t want Potter sacked.

 

[Dick Swiveller]

Sky News​

“Potter: I know the responsibility I have at Chelsea​

Graham Potter vehemently denied implications that he might not see out the season at Chelsea despite their disappointing record under his tenure.
Potter’s side have won just two of their last 10 Premier League encounters, most recently falling 1-0 to Manchester City at Stamford Bridge.
Speculation about Potter’s longevity at the club has run more rampant in recent days, but the Blues boss insisted he did not need validation from anyone outside the confines of his club.
“The owners are billionaires so they’re quite smart,” he said. “Smarter than me, that’s for sure. So they understand the challenges that we have and the direction we want to go in. I’ve been here four months and five, six weeks of that have been lost to international football.
“I think Pep (Guardiola) was (at Manchester City) a year before they’d won anything, and then obviously Mikel (Arteta) and Jurgen (Klopp) took a bit of time. But obviously it’s maybe different for me, for some reason. But I don’t put a timescale on it. I know the responsibility we have here.
“But also I know that I am capable, and I know the quality that I have and I have the full support of certainly the owners, the players and the staff here. And you can see by the support we had (against City), it was fantastic, so there will always be people that doubt.
“There’s nothing you can do, but certainly I’m not here to convince anybody. I’m here to do my I work and then if that convinces then that’s fine.””


So there you have it - regardless of what anyone says on this thread, Potter will happily chew the cud til the cows come home!

Looks like his disdain of press conferences is coming home to roost. His banal, generalisations were allowed to slide when he was here but now he is at a "bigger" club and under a bit of pressure, he is getting more pointed questions and getting snarky. Sorry Graham but annoying questions for journos is part of the big bucks you earn. They won't let you get away with sucking your teeth and saying the opposition are good an nauseum.

I have always had sympathy with him on the banality of it but the bigger the club, the more important it becomes. A comment at a Brighton presser is very unlikely to be lead story on SSN but that isn't the case at Chelsea. He needs to rein in the snark or the journos will sense blood,

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

I agree, it was a great squad. Hence ending up 9th, remains to be seen if that will be beaten. I can agree the Caicedo loan was clearly shite, because things ended up really bad for him.

While the squad last season was great, this is even better. You could see it in beginning of the season and you can see it now. Main difference is Mitoma, a player the squad has been desperately in need of for several years.

Mitoma … a player that Potter chucked on with 10 minutes to go ..

The main difference between Potter and RDZ … goals and lots of them. Goals or the lack of them which has always been Potters achilles heel. To me it is all speed of passing and the view that two touches is one touch too many.

 

[dwayne]

I agree, it was a great squad. Hence ending up 9th, remains to be seen if that will be beaten. I can agree the Caicedo loan was clearly shite, because things ended up really bad for him.

While the squad last season was great, this is even better. You could see it in beginning of the season and you can see it now. Main difference is Mitoma, a player the squad has been desperately in need of for several years.

Mitoma … a player that Potter chucked on with 10 minutes to go ..

The main difference between Potter and RDZ … goals and lots of them. Goals or the lack of them which has always been Potters achilles heel. To me it is all speed of passing and the view that two touches is one touch too many.

Yep that key player mitoma who de zerbi recognised as amazing as soon as he joined played 54 minutes this season under potter !!

 

[BadFish]

Yeah. "We laid the blame at the players feet for a long time but De Zerbi has burst that myth" sort of suggested that the players aren't relevant

De Zerbi does have a similar (identical) squad to the one in the beginning of the season, when the team was scoring a decent amount of goals. It is true that the team has went on to score even more goals per game after De Zerbi. It is also true that the team gets less points per game (which some hold down to meeting all-of-a-sudden unbeatable teams like Spurs and Arsenal, but if opposition is to be taken into account, you might argue playing Everton, Southampton and fecking Middlesbrough might have some impact on the number of goals scored as well).

Of course the players are relevant you silly sausage, you are doing the classic 'if someone suggests one factor the best arguement is to pretend that they are suggesting all other factors make no difference'. You are better than that.

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that De Zerbi's faster attack that doesn't let the opposition get their defence set up is improving the goalscoring problems that blighted Potter's reign with us. You disagree, and that is fair enough, but I see more goals being scored in a more effective goal-scoring team. This may not continue and I may be proven wrong but I doubt it. Only time will tell.

The beginning of the season and end of last were somewhat of an anomoly for Potter (as he left us this cannot be confirmed but i have my suspicions that he had not solved the problem of poor goals return as many assumed).

 

[Swansman]

Mitoma … a player that Potter chucked on with 10 minutes to go ..

The main difference between Potter and RDZ … goals and lots of them. Goals or the lack of them which has always been Potters achilles heel. To me it is all speed of passing and the view that two touches is one touch too many.

Also a sub for RDZs first three games (then injured for two) until Welbeck was injured.

Yes, the team has scored more goals. I don't see any data indicating that Brighton is passing the ball at a higher speed, but feel free to provide some. To me it comes down to improved quality (Pervis better offensively than Cucurella and Mitoma a class above what has previously been available) as well as the opposition (Southampton and Everton rolling over to die a painful death, similar to Leicester), whereas it is the exact same struggle against teams that defend well (such as Fulham when GPs boys played them and Nottingham/Spurs/Villa/Brentford when RDZ faced them).

 

[Swansman]

Of course the players are relevant you silly sausage, you are doing the classic 'if someone suggests one factor the best arguement is to pretend that they are suggesting all other factors make no difference'. You are better than that.

I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that De Zerbi's faster attack that doesn't let the opposition get their defence set up is improving the goalscoring problems that blighted Potter's reign with us. You disagree, and that is fair enough, but I see more goals being scored in a more effective goal-scoring team. This may not continue and I may be proven wrong but I doubt it. Only time will tell.

The beginning of the season and end of last were somewhat of an anomoly for Potter (as he left us this cannot be confirmed but i have my suspicions that he had not solved the problem of poor goals return as many assumed).

Ok, so once you're saying:
1. The players matter
2. RDZ makes Brighton score more goals because the final six months of GP was an anomaly... couldn't that be down to players mattering?
3. Brighton are attacking faster - evidence for this?
4. More effective goal-scoring team - yet struggling with the exact same type of opposition that was a struggle in the past. What does it suggest?

 

[Official Old Man]

Potter press conference for FA Cup. Who thought it a brilliant idea to use yellow lighting on him? Seriously, a yellow light on him and he's ginger enough already.

 

[Acker79]

Nah. I have never been a passionate supporter of Potter (always found the football frustrating because of the final third). Never was potter-out, but always felt somewhat disconnected.

Having said that, there's no denying how much progress we made under him (albeit mostly showing in the third year). So when thinking about his chance at Chelsea I'm looking toward Arteta and thinking 'if he gets the time'. Even as late as last season, Arsenal fans were baying for Arteta's blood. He was out of ideas. Brighton had got one over on them in the Ben White deal (at elast very early in his time there). The venom being spewed on AFTV was entertaining for me. Fast forward to this year, and now arteta is the best thing since sliced bread, Arsenal got one over on us with the White deal etc.

In theory, it shouldn't take Potter the 3 years to get results that it took him to get results with us because the players are better*. But if he's given time I think he will turn out good.

Will he be given time? We don't know. Boehly says he would, but it's easy to say that when you appoint someone. He wouldn't be the first billionaire to change his mind to protect his wealth. But when you attend the games and see the venom spewed by the fans, it can be harder to stay the course (Arteta benefitted from Kroenke rarely attending games). When you're looking at missing out on Europe, it can be harder. Though, he wouldn't be the first billionaire to ignore a popular call for action and studdonly stay the course he believes in (even if he ultimately is proven wrong).



*In a different discussion, are we seeing the gap between players at the big six, and players at other clubs is not as big as their wage packets suggest? There was a widespread belief that the flaws in Brighton's game were a result of the level of our players, and that at a bigger club, with their better players, Potter's football would be much more successful. We're currently seeing this supposedly better players struggle just the way Brighton players did at first. Are we being blinded by price tags? Should teams outside the big six have more confidence in their players/less reverence for those that happen to be at the big six (obviously there are star players there, but speaking more generally)

 

[BadFish]

Ok, so once you're saying:
1. The players matter
2. RDZ makes Brighton score more goals because the final six months of GP was an anomaly... couldn't that be down to players mattering?
3. Brighton are attacking faster - evidence for this?
4. More effective goal-scoring team - yet struggling with the exact same type of opposition that was a struggle in the past. What does it suggest?

You haven't noticed when you watch the games? The contrast is stark, more direct when the ball is won and attacks are set up quicker.

Anyway like I say I think De Zerbi is more effective at getting our team scoring (with a very similar group of players). I may be proven wrong about this and we may fall back into failing to score from less effective opportunities. But I doubt it.

 

[Swansman]

Yep that key player mitoma who de zerbi recognised as amazing as soon as he joined played 54 minutes this season under potter !!

If he was recognised as amazing immediately why didn't he get a start before RDZs sixth game, when Welbeck was injured?

 

[Acker79]

The beginning of the season and end of last were somewhat of an anomoly for Potter (as he left us this cannot be confirmed but i have my suspicions that he had not solved the problem of poor goals return as many assumed).

I think I made a similar point before in another thread. We ended the 2020/21 season well, and started the 2021/22 season well, then dropped off after september through to january, then ended 2021/22.

We then started 2022/23 well, but he left in September. People were assuminig the good end to the previous season and good start to this season was a sign he'd sorted everything and we would sail through the season. I was looking at how we were in a similar position in September 2021 and then it dropped off.

 

[Swansman]

You haven't noticed when you watch the games? The contrast is stark, more direct when the ball is won and attacks are set up quicker.

Anyway like I say I think De Zerbi is more effective at getting our team scoring (with a very similar group of players). I may be proven wrong about this and we may fall back into failing to score from less effective opportunities. But I doubt it.

No I haven't noticed that. I have noticed that when facing a team that likes to pressure high (United, Leicester, Southampton, Everton, Liverpool), attacks look like quicker. When facing a team that doesn't (Fulham, Nottingham, Tottenham, Villa, Brentford), attacks look slower. Irrespective of coach.

Not that it bothers me really. All the best teams in the league have slow build-up play and all the worst teams have quick build-up, season after season.

 

[BadFish]

No I haven't noticed that. I have noticed that when facing a team that likes to pressure high (United, Leicester, Southampton, Everton, Liverpool), attacks look like quicker. When facing a team that doesn't (Fulham, Nottingham, Tottenham, Villa, Brentford), attacks look slower. Irrespective of coach.

Not that it bothers me really. All the best teams in the league have slow build-up play and all the worst teams have quick build-up, season after season.

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So you feel that Potter is just as effective as De Zerbi in terms of producing goal scoring teams?

Obviously hard to prove with so many other variables affecting the stats but De Zerbi joined us with a reputation for effective attacking football and Potter created one with us for not scoring enough goals.

As I say, only time will tell how this pans out but for now, I remain happy with the decision our board has made. Maybe Chelsea fans' mood will improve once their injury list reduces.

 

[trueblue]

He could stop work after they sack him and spend the rest of his life with those he loves, doing the things he enjoys. No way we were paying him enough to do that.

Wasn’t it £6m a year plus according to the Athletic? So £15m minimum take home over the 5 years. I could probably cope on that for a while

 

[trueblue]

How about when Bloom sacked Hughton, where was the loyalty/principles there? He got us promoted and kept us up two years running, yet we got rid of him because we thought there was someone else who could do a better job (which turned out to be correct).

It works both ways, everyone in football knows there is no loyalty. As per Barber's interview a couple of months ago, Bloom/Barber themselves don't hold any grudges against Potter and said they completely understand why he left - Barber saying he'd done similar in the past when a better opportunity came up.

Again, although he was sacked and, no doubt, paid off handsomely, Albion didn’t take steps to screw him over for the future.

 

[Swansman]

So you feel that Potter is just as effective as De Zerbi in terms of producing goal scoring teams?

Obviously hard to prove with so many other variables affecting the stats but De Zerbi joined us with a reputation for effective attacking football and Potter created one with us for not scoring enough goals.

As I say, only time will tell how this pans out but for now, I remain happy with the decision our board has made. Maybe Chelsea fans' mood will improve once their injury list reduces.

Yes, I see nothing indicating the opposite so far.

Graham Potter joined with the reputation of playing effective attacking football but couldn't make it happen with Maupay (the substitute in a non-scoring Everton), Connolly (not exactly tearing the world apart), Trossard (who RDZ won't touch with a barge pole), Murray (who couldn't score in the Championship at that point), Alireza J (now a non-scoring substitute in monkeyball league where everyone scores), Welbeck (inconsistent goal scorer throughout his career), Solly (who is apparently going to score dozens of goals now but it remains to be seen really) as his options up-front for most of the goal struggle-era.

These were fed chances by the likes of Bissouma (fantastic player but not really a playmaker), Stephens (great player but also not really with that lethal final pass), Pröpper (overrated imo), Lallana (who is great but also was unavailable for lengthy periods of time) a young and according to himself not ready Ali Mac, Pascal Gross (Potter should probably have got more out of him in the first few seasons)...

GP couldn't get this very sub-par bunch of players (aided by left-back BDB for the most part and Montoya and later Veltman on the RB/RWB) to score a lot of goals, that is true. It is also true that once certain players (Ali Mac and Caicedo most notably) reached readyness, the team did get a lot of goals.

RDZ never had the same problems GP (and CH) faced for most of the teams "non-scoring" era. This is imo the main reason why the team is scoring more goals.

 

[Dick Swiveller]

Trossard (who RDZ won't touch with a barge pole),

That is clown shoes, even for you. He literally scored the first 5 goals under RDZ and has only been dropped since his seeming sulk.

 

[Swansman]

That is clown shoes, even for you. He literally scored the first 5 goals under RDZ and has only been dropped since his seeming sulk.

Yes was going to add (but forgot to do so) that Maupay and Trossard are of course good PL players, but with some obvious flaws. They're the main reason GP's side scored around 40 goals per season rather than 25 or so as would have likely been the case without them (and without no replacement).