Handball intent

[Acker79]

For as long as I remember the handball rule has always been that there has to be intent. Yet, equally for as long I remember the cliche has been trotted out "if you raise your hand, you risk conceding a free kick/penalty".

That phrase has been trotted out with many contentious decisions over the years.

Yet over the last couple of weeks, and during the game last night, some commentators/analysts have completely dropped the old mantra and are now focusing on intent.

Anyone know why there's been a sudden widespread abandoning of "if you raise your arm..." in favour of "there has to be intent"?

(Personally, I think the measuring stick should be if a player/team gets an advantage from the handball)

 

[Mellotron]

I think the handball rule is still a source of mass confusion. It seems to me now to be a handball if the contact affects the balls' flight in a big way. Because surely only 0.01% of handballs that are punished are intentional. Very rarely as a footballer would you want to handball.

 

[ali jenkins]

What I hate is when a player has a ball smashed into his arm from 2 yards and not giving away a free kick the other team act like he has just been let off mass murder and rape of their own mothers!

How is someone supposed to move their hand out of the way in that short time scale?

 

[NMH]

What I hate is when a player has a ball smashed into his arm from 2 yards and not giving away a free kick the other team act like he has just been let off mass murder and rape of their own mothers!

How is someone supposed to move their hand out of the way in that short time scale?

Worse is when the ref actually gives it, as a penalty.
Referees now give fouls inside the box, easier than fouls outside the box.

With handball, it should be given if hand goes to ball, every time.
If ball goes to hand, then it ought to be referee's discretion as to whether is prevented a goal - and then a penalty is enough punishment, a card being undue, really.

Many refs do over-assume their reason for being on the pitch, in my opinion.
There are times when adjudication is not necessary or desirable, but they will insist on enforcing their decision.

 

[Mellotron]

Worse is when the ref actually gives it, as a penalty.
Referees now give fouls inside the box, easier than fouls outside the box.

With handball, it should be given if hand goes to ball, every time.
If ball goes to hand, then it ought to be referee's discretion as to whether is prevented a goal - and then a penalty is enough punishment, a card being undue, really.

Many refs do over-assume their reason for being on the pitch, in my opinion.
There are times when adjudication is not necessary or desirable, but they will insist on enforcing their decision.

What is hand to ball and what is ball to hand though? In almost all cases it is both, as both the hand and ball are moving. I think refs blow for almost all hand contact nowadays. About 0.01% is intentional.

Totally agreed on the last sentence. You know the ref has had a very good game if you haven't noticed them at all. Whereas some refs feel they need to exert their authority on the game when frankly it isn't needed.

 

[Skint Gull]

To me there has to be intent for any handball to be given and as far as i'm concerned unless your arms are by your side that is intent.

The amount of times people like John Terry go to block a ball by spreading themselves wide like a keeper does is rediculious. As soon as your arms are out or above your head when trying to block a cross/pass/shot it doesn't matter how far away you are, the intent is the raising of the arms in the first place.

 

[Tooting Gull]

I would say the majority of media people involved in football do not know the rules of football. They know some of them, but not all of them. And they should all have to do a course, like others do a Health &Safety course or whatever, obligatory to do the job properly.

Mind you, most players, managers and fans fall into the same category.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

If you are going to get away with an intentional handball you need to be an attacking player , the defensive players are going to be scrutinised more. Maradona did it in the World Cup , the Hereford player who guided the ball into the net to equalise on Peter Ward's league debut at Edgar Street and numerous others.

 

[Mellotron]

To me there has to be intent for any handball to be given and as far as i'm concerned unless your arms are by your side that is intent.

The amount of times people like John Terry go to block a ball by spreading themselves wide like a keeper does is rediculious. As soon as your arms are out or above your head when trying to block a cross/pass/shot it doesn't matter how far away you are, the intent is the raising of the arms in the first place.

That's not INTENTIONAL though. Intentional means aiming to touch the ball with your hands. That only happens in freak occurrences. If a player is "making himself big" it doesn't mean he WANTS the ball to hit his hands.

I can't think of the last time I saw actual intent to handball. It can't have happened much more than 10 times since Maradona.

 

[Acker79]

That's not INTENTIONAL though. Intentional means aiming to touch the ball with your hands. That only happens in freak occurrences. If a player is "making himself big" it doesn't mean he WANTS the ball to hit his hands.

I can't think of the last time I saw actual intent to handball. It can't have happened much more than 10 times since Maradona.

But by sticking your hands out to "make yourself big", you are risking handball, you are making a conscious decision to put your hand where you know the ball may come so if you are taking that risk, you are responsible if it occurs.

I'm sure it has happened more than 10 times since the 80s. There are many occasions where defenders on the line stick out a hand to stop a goal because the goal keeper is already beaten.

I'd argue Ronaldo deliberately handballed earlier this season, despite his protestation that he was protecting his face (which he said after claiming he was pushed), and defenders who lean into the oncoming ball.

 

[Skint Gull]

That's not INTENTIONAL though. Intentional means aiming to touch the ball with your hands. That only happens in freak occurrences. If a player is "making himself big" it doesn't mean he WANTS the ball to hit his hands.

I can't think of the last time I saw actual intent to handball. It can't have happened much more than 10 times since Maradona.

Course it is, if you stick your arms out you are doing so with the INTENTION of using them to block the ball if it is kicked in that direction! You can make yourself big and still keep your arms by your side!

Anyone who argues that if the ball hits JT's hand there it's not a hand ball is an idiot, not matter how close it's kicked from

 

[Seagullible]

I do feel it unfair to givve handball if the players hands are protecting his face or his arems ar directly in front of his body so the ball would have hit the body anyway

 

[Mellotron]

Course it is, if you stick your arms out you are doing so with the INTENTION of using them to block the ball if it is kicked in that direction! You can make yourself big and still keep your arms by your side!

Anyone who argues that if the ball hits JT's hand there it's not a hand ball is an idiot, not matter how close it's kicked from

I agree that it is handball. I don't agree that it is intentional handball. He is not trying to hit or contact the ball with his hand in any way.

 

[Mellotron]

But by sticking your hands out to "make yourself big", you are risking handball, you are making a conscious decision to put your hand where you know the ball may come so if you are taking that risk, you are responsible if it occurs.

I'm sure it has happened more than 10 times since the 80s. There are many occasions where defenders on the line stick out a hand to stop a goal because the goal keeper is already beaten.

I'd argue Ronaldo deliberately handballed earlier this season, despite his protestation that he was protecting his face (which he said after claiming he was pushed), and defenders who lean into the oncoming ball.

You are risking it, but you are not intentionally trying to touch the ball with your hand. So it is not intent. It's only intent if you move your hand towards the ball in a motion where it looks like you are actually trying to handle the ball. This practically never happens.

The Ronaldo one was a bit of a freak occurrence, like I said these happen rarely. When can you last remember an incident of a player catching the ball and being penalised for it?

It seemed to me he caught it because he believed it was a foul for a push in the back. He would not have intentionally handled it otherwise.

 

[Acker79]

You are risking it, but you are not intentionally trying to touch the ball with your hand. So it is not intent. It's only intent if you move your hand towards the ball in a motion where it looks like you are actually trying to handle the ball. This practically never happens.

The Ronaldo one was a bit of a freak occurrence, like I said these happen rarely. When can you last remember an incident of a player catching the ball and being penalised for it?

It seemed to me he caught it because he believed it was a foul for a push in the back. He would not have intentionally handled it otherwise.

I think it's a matter of semantics, then. I think putting your hand where you know there's a good chance the ball will be = intent.

The Ronaldo thing was a freak occurence (though I've noticed).

But while rare, it happens several times a season that a defender blocks the ball on the line with his hand (Ashley Young would have done so had he not realised the ball was going over a couple of weeks ago when that penalty decision was rescinded). Much more frequently than the once everys 3 and a bit years you suggested. Probably even as much as 10 times a season if you include all game in the four top divisions and cup competitions and not just the televised games.

 

[Mellotron]

I agree it is a matter of semantics and I think they need to make the wording of the law clearer, and until then there will be plenty of confusion.

Same as the old offside/interfering with play rule, because you could argue that any player on a pitch is interfering with play, albeit in a small way.

 

[SI 4 BHA]

So what is 'deliberate' handball?

"In Fifa's Laws of the Game 2005, Law 12 says a free-kick or penalty will be awarded if a player "handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)".

Page 67 of the document gives "additional information for referees, assistant referees and fourth officials".

It adds: "Referees are reminded that deliberately handling the ball is normally punished only by a direct free-kick or penalty kick if the offence occurred inside the penalty area.

"A caution or dismissal is not normally required."

However, the document fails to describe what constitutes deliberate handball, which places the responsibility firmly on the referee and referees' assistants.

Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.

Referees often consult their assistants on decisions
"Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.

"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.

"If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed." "

So that's perfectly clear then - it's up to the referee to decide what is "deliberate"

 

[Mellotron]

By the rules given above, I would say far too many free kicks/penalties are given for handball.

 

[Skint Gull]

I agree that it is handball. I don't agree that it is intentional handball. He is not trying to hit or contact the ball with his hand in any way.

So are you saying that would be a free kick or not because by the rules of the game it can only be given as handball if it is intentional? A 'deliberate' handball, which it think is how you are interpretting this is punishable by a free kick AND a red/yellow card.

If, after a ball is kicked you deliberately move your hand/arm towards it that is a deliberate handball. If you have your arms out 'making yourself big' you didn't deliberately handle it but the intent was still there, making it a free kick

 

[Gluteus Maximus]

I know what my intent would be with these handball lovelies... deliberate or accidental.