I hope this happens. A small and encouraging bit of good news if it does.TRUCE DEAL CLOSE
As mentioned on Saturday above - The truce deal Qatar has been working on for some weeks is, according to Hamas, very close to being agreed. Hamas is looking for safe corridors and a temporary ceasefire to get wounded evacuated and aid into Gaza. Hamas say they are prepared to release hostages (women and children) in a prisoner swap with political prisoners held in detention in Israel. Qatar say the deal has been close for days but it has been Israel dragging it’s feet and not being willing to negotiate a ceasefire (presumably because Israel wanted to stick to its agenda of ‘annihilating’ Hamas.)
Hamas, Israel leaders suggest deal is ‘close’ on captives, Gaza truce
Qatar-mediated deal could see Hamas exchange captives for Palestinian prisoners; Biden says ‘we’re now very close’.www.aljazeera.com
It is hard to see how any ceasefire will last after any such prisoner and hostage swap as long as Netanyahu is in charge - Netanyahu has said several times in the past few weeks how the rescue of the hostages was only secondary to the aim to ‘destroy’ Hamas and that effort will need to continue if Hamas are not to regroup - we seem a long way from that yet. Qatar has also been very quiet about harbouring the leadership of Hamas in Qatar.
However, Netanyahu’s political support in Israel continues to collapse (as I mentioned up thread a few weeks ago) https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...-netanyahu-imploding-gantz-taking-the-rudder/ and it is becoming increasingly likely that the writing is on the wall for Bibi and he will be replaced as soon as the war is over (another reason he will want to continue with the conflict) with Gantz or Lapid of the Israeli centrist party, Yesh Atid, looking like his successor…the Biden administration have also acknowledged that Netanyahu’s political future is very tenuous:
“Lapid hopes that Israel is heading for a major political realignment and that the country will be able to put Netanyahu behind it. “I told Blinken I’m a sad optimist. And Israel’s future can only be as a liberal democracy. If we want to return to being a very successful country, we must find our way back to being a country that’s led by liberal values,”
It is the collapse of support for Netanyahu and his extreme Religious Zionist coalition that gives the greatest hope for peace for years since all his political opponents are committed to a two state solution and turning back from the authoritarian and theocratic State it has become under the Lukid Party - The protest marches against Bibi’s judicial reform proposals are likely to resume with increased vigour once the hostages are released.
Netanyahu: Will he stay or will he go?
After most recent tumults, Palestinians have wound up more disunited while Israelis have lurched further to the right. And if that happens again, Bibi’s enemies fear he just might hold on.www.politico.eu
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[News] Middle East conflict
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
Is @aolstudios banned from posting on the thread? He was still commenting on Friday when he accused someone of hating Jews. Did that get him a time out?
His spamming the thread with laughter emojis started way before that though.
His spamming the thread with laughter emojis started way before that though.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 7,277
From the BBC
What we know about the potential deal
Let's recap some of the details we've been hearing about a potential agreement involving Hamas and Israel:- Hamas's leader Ismail Haniyeh earlier said his group was close to agreeingwhat he called a "truce agreement" - after more than six weeks of fighting
- Moments ago, Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu said "we are making progress" on the return of hostages snatched by Hamas on 7 October. He added: "I hope there will be good news soon"
- Our correspondent Frank Gardner says the deal could see the release of some of the hostages taken from Israel to Gaza in return for pauses in fighting and the release of Palestinian prisoners
- According to Reuters, the potential agreement - mediated by Qatar - envisages the release of around 50 civilian hostages by Hamas, and of Palestinian women and minors held in Israeli custody
From the Guardian on the impact this is having on Netanyahu’s leadership:
The pressure on Netanyahu is starting to tell – this potential truce shows something has changed | Simon Tisdall
A deal to pause hostilities in Gaza and free some hostages is agonisingly close, but both sides are split on what happens next, says foreign affairs commentator Simon Tisdall
www.theguardian.com
- Oct 20, 2022
- 7,277
Perhaps the mods can answer that for you - someone accused me several times of being anti-semitic as did several other posters before him but I think it is more used as a tool to shut down what is perceived to be opposition views/the ‘loudest voice’ rather than holding a genuine belief that I or @borat (or anyone else who expresses the majority view here) are actually anti-semitic tbh.
I have said it before but criticism of ‘Israel’ can be a very grey area for some people (usually hard right wing Jews tbh!) insofar as whether it constitutes ‘anti-semitism’ - anti-semitism is certainly on the rise in the UK - as was Islamophobia in the wake of 9/11 - but some people still feel that even to say anything negative about Israel is anti-semitic. I am very aware of my Jewish identity at the moment in a way that has never made me feel so vulnerable, especially walking around a predominately muslim area where I live but I know for me personally this is a heightened sensitivity triggered by my own guilt at what Israel is doing in Gaza and my enduring compassion for the people living under occupation OPT rather than a rational fear of being subjected to a racial attack - but for some Jews, particularly living in London, the fear is largely founded in actual risk.
While the majority of us on this thread have criticised quite strongly, Israel (or Netanyahu’s Government to be more precise), other posters can not get beyond the abhorrence to the initial attack by Hamas, so have not felt the same or at least can not bring themselves to condemn Israel’s response.
Those posters who have ‘flounced the thread’ should feel comforted at least that they are not alone in those views beyond NSC - it’s just not either the moderate one expressed by the majority on NSC nor the majority view expressed at large but they are legitimate view points none the less albeit ones I disagree with profoundly; especially when it is in the form of support or justification for killing 5,000 children and 7,000 adults in response to those killed on 7/10 - or when those views dehumanise the Palestinian people.
‘On the frontline of blame’: how it feels to be Jewish in UK since Hamas attack
Some staunchly defend the actions of Israel. Others are so alarmed at the fate of Gaza they have joined pro-Palestine protests. In between lie a range of views … but all feel the chill of rising antisemitism
www.theguardian.com
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Lol, building bunkers to increase the capacity of the hospital. Cheaper to build up rather than down. Bizarre that no one else until now is claiming these were built by the israelis.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,065
if they built them for increased capacity of hospital, wouldnt they be used as capacity for hospital? ie, the basement. not some tunnels. also why not send in a squad of special forces?
- Oct 20, 2022
- 7,277
Indeed - it’s never black and white is it? I love Christiane Amanpour - world class journalist and while it’s been reported for years in minority media that Israel built these tunnels, a public admission by an ex-Prime Minister at a time the State is at war with Hamas and especially after 7/10 is quite sensational.
2014 - The pro-Israel Tablet publication apparently reported that Israel:
“Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath al-Shifa hospital – which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the hospital.”
Did Israel build a bunker under al-Shifa hospital?
Joe Biden repeats Israeli lies, further fueling genocide in Gaza.
electronicintifada.net
She phrased the question very careful to ask the former prime minister if a ’major operations‘ bunker had be found to which he answered ‘no’ so still Israelis still looking for that smoking gun that justified the attacks on the Hospital resulting in shutting it down and so many civilian casualties - I think a strong argument could be made to say the tunnels weren’t built by Israeli engineers for extra hospital storage space !! Israel has been more than involved in Hamas’s rise to a major terrorist group in the ME:
Here’s Mehdi Hasan again (who tweeted that interview) with a video of how Hamas is a blowback to Israel’s policy of underpinning and helping to create Hamas to counter the Palestinian Authority and before that Yasser Arafat and the PLO
I
The responsibility lies with the Israeli government and those countries / lobby groups (US and UK included) that give unconditional military and financial support to enable the long standing persecution and displacement of Palestinians.
Obviously your feelings are your feelings but personally I dont think any Jewish person including yourself should feel guilty or responsible for what Israel is doing now / has done in the past to the Palestinians. Jews are not a monolith and most have no control whatsoever over Israel and it's actions. There are many prominent and brave Jews and Jewish groups that have spoken out (not that they are in any way obliged to do so)Perhaps the mods can answer that for you - he accused me several times of being anti-semitic as did several other posters but I think that was more used as a tool to shut down what they perceive to be opposition views/the ‘loudest voice’ rather than holding a genuine belief that I or @borat (or anyone else who has expressed the majority view here) are actually anti-semitic!
I have said it before but criticism of ‘Israel’ can be a very grey area for some people (usually hard right wing Jews tbh!) insofar as whether it constitutes ‘anti-semitism’ - anti-semitism is certainly on the rise in the UK - as was Islamophobia in the wake of 9/11 - but some people still feel that even to say anything negative about Israel is anti-semitic. I am very aware of my Jewish identity at the moment in a way that has never made me feel so vulnerable, especially walking around a predominately muslim area where I live but I know for me personally this is a heightened sensitivity triggered by my own guilt at what Israel is doing in Gaza and my enduring compassion for the people living under occupation OPT rather than a rational fear of being subjected to a racial attack - but for some Jews, particularly living in London, the fear is largely founded in actual risk.
While the majority of us on this thread have criticised quite strongly, Israel (or Netanyahu’s Government to be more precise), other posters can not get beyond the abhorrence to the initial attack by Hamas, so have not felt the same or at least can not bring themselves to condemn Israel’s response.
Those posters who have ‘flounced the thread’ should feel comforted at least that they are not alone in those views beyond NSC - it’s just not either the moderate one expressed by the majority on NSC nor the majority view expressed at large but they are legitimate view points none the less albeit ones I disagree with profoundly; especially when it is in the form of support or justification for killing 5,000 children and 7,000 adults in response to those killed on 7/10 - or when those views dehumanise the Palestinian people.
‘On the frontline of blame’: how it feels to be Jewish in UK since Hamas attack
Some staunchly defend the actions of Israel. Others are so alarmed at the fate of Gaza they have joined pro-Palestine protests. In between lie a range of views … but all feel the chill of rising antisemitism
The responsibility lies with the Israeli government and those countries / lobby groups (US and UK included) that give unconditional military and financial support to enable the long standing persecution and displacement of Palestinians.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,960
You seem to have shot your case in both feet there, it shows how certain groups within Israel and it's government have been backing Hamas for decades. I am assuming you didn't understand the implications of the interview that you posted
But while you're here
I believe you were going to come back with a reputable source for this, because it would take a seriously sick individual to simply make something this horrendous up and then post it on NSC with no reputable sources whatsoever, and I'm sure isn't the case
And for all the moderate people on NSC, it seems we're close to a truce, thank f***
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- Oct 20, 2022
- 7,277
Netanyhu’s Cabinet meeting now to discuss Truce Deal - media widely reporting an announcement this evening on release of around 50 hostages:
However, the far right ministers of the Religious Zionists and Jerusalem Power parties in his cabinet are very much against this deal - Netanyahu will find it hard to get a unanimous vote even for a temporary ceasefire in a coalition government glued together by far right extremists but they are expected to be outvoted and the deal be done.
www.theguardian.com
“Israel’s national security minister, well known for his anti-Palestinian beliefs, says he’s opposed to the deal, arguing that Hamas’s approval “indicates that the army is carrying out an effective attack” …Ben-Gvir added in a social media post that the Israeli army had to “continue fighting to subject [Hamas] to our conditions” … The Jewish Power party leader joins his fellow far-right minister, Religious Zionist party leader Bezalel Smotrich, in opposing the deal. Both are members of Israel’s security cabinet and main government cabinet, which are meeting on Tuesday to discuss approval of the deal.”
www.aljazeera.com
However, the far right ministers of the Religious Zionists and Jerusalem Power parties in his cabinet are very much against this deal - Netanyahu will find it hard to get a unanimous vote even for a temporary ceasefire in a coalition government glued together by far right extremists but they are expected to be outvoted and the deal be done.
Israel-Hamas war live: Israeli cabinet backs hostage deal that will free dozens in Gaza - reports
Cabinet approves deal with Hamas that will see at least 50 Israeli hostages released in return for unknown number of jailed Palestinians, multiple Israeli reports say
www.theguardian.com
“Israel’s national security minister, well known for his anti-Palestinian beliefs, says he’s opposed to the deal, arguing that Hamas’s approval “indicates that the army is carrying out an effective attack” …Ben-Gvir added in a social media post that the Israeli army had to “continue fighting to subject [Hamas] to our conditions” … The Jewish Power party leader joins his fellow far-right minister, Religious Zionist party leader Bezalel Smotrich, in opposing the deal. Both are members of Israel’s security cabinet and main government cabinet, which are meeting on Tuesday to discuss approval of the deal.”
Israeli bombs across Gaza, but cabinet meets to discuss deal
Mediator Qatar says negotiations to free captives in Gaza as part of a truce agreement are at their ‘closest point’.
The Clamp
Well-known member
Israel-Hamas war live: Israeli cabinet backs hostage deal that will free dozens in Gaza - reports
Cabinet approves deal with Hamas that will see at least 50 Israeli hostages released in return for unknown number of jailed Palestinians, multiple Israeli reports say
www.theguardian.com
- Oct 20, 2022
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Thanks @The Clamp - some good news finally eh? 
WHAT’S THE DEAL?
WHAT’S THE DEAL?
- 12-15 hostages to be released a day over a period of 4-5 days -(Includes 3 Americans (a child age 4 and 2 women)
- 300 trucks per day delivering aid allowed in from Egypt plus fuel
- release of 50 women and children hostages held in Gaza
- a four-day partial ceasefire.
- lull in Israeli military operations would be extended for an additional day for every 10 more hostages released.
- first hostages should be free within 48 hours of the agreement.
- 150 Palestinian women and children would be freed from Israeli jails.
- The release of every 10 additional abductees will result in an additional day of respite.”
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You seem to have shot your case in both feet there, it shows how certain groups within Israel and it's government have been backing Hamas for decades. I am assuming you didn't understand the implications of the interview that you posted
But while you're here
I don't have a case at all nor a horse in either race and yes I do understand the implications of the interview with a former Israeli PM ,
that is why I posted it here
If it makes me "sick" to be sickened by details that I have come across recently then so be itI believe you were going to come back with a reputable source for this, because it would take a seriously sick individual to simply make something this horrendous up and then post it on NSC with no reputable sources whatsoever, and I'm sure isn't the case
It has been reported that selected Journalists were shown screenings of atrocities that occurred on October the 7th , the clips were " allegedly" filmed by Hamas themselves . I haven't seen it and wouldn't want to anyway but have read accounts in the press of some of the activities that were shown and that " journalist said audience members began weeping as they sat in their chairs, while others whimpered 'make it stop' after a matter of minutes."
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,960
So you don't have any verifiable source for this, but you thought you'd make it up and post it anyway
'No horse in the race ?' Definitely the sort of post another NSC moderate who is hoping for peace would make
'No horse in the race ?' Definitely the sort of post another NSC moderate who is hoping for peace would make
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- Oct 20, 2022
- 7,277
Members of Palestine squad trapped in Gaza and can’t make to WC qualifiers - only a small issue in the greater scheme of things but as a football fan, I feel it’s another very sad impact of this war:
www.bbc.co.uk
Palestinian football's 'star defender' stuck in Gaza - BBC News
Ibrahim Abuimeir and two others won't be able to play in Tuesday's World Cup qualifier against Australia.
www.bbc.co.uk
Happy for Hams to sue me if they feel that I have defamed them in any waySo you don't have any verifiable source for this, but you thought you'd make it up and post it anyway
'No horse in the race ?' Definitely the sort of post another NSC moderate who is hoping for peace would make
So you don't have any verifiable source for this, but you thought you'd make it up and post it anyway
'No horse in the race ?' Definitely the sort of post another NSC moderate who is hoping for peace would make
Two wrongs do not make a right. Please bear in mind:
1) Posting things that are false or cannot be verified could lead to the SITE being sued although I'm sure Bozza would do his utmost to ensure it was you instead in this instance @carlzeiss . Post one more bit of disinformation and you'll have a long holiday from NSC.
2) However, that's no reason to take petty grudges from the Bear Pit @WATFORD zero . This is a serious thread, it doesn't need personal trolling. One more of that and you'll lose access to this thread.
A yellow each. Sort yourselves out.
That is quite a bit of an issue I fear ( a hopefully groundless fear ). I heard on an interview on Radio 4 about a month ago ( obviously the interviewee's opinion ) that the political and military branches of Hamas don't always have the same agenda.Thanks @The Clamp - some good news finally eh?
WHAT’S THE DEAL?
Worryingly, Hamas has ‘lost’ about 30 hostages now thought to be in the hands of the Palestinian Islamic Jihadists (one of the other terror groups operating separately from Hamas in Gaza). The deal has been negotiated with the Hamas leadership in Qatar not with the Hamas Brigades in Gaza so it remains to be seen how enforceable it is - Netanyahu has stated that the military campaign to destroy Hamas will continue after the hostages are released so it will be a very fragile ’pause’ in hostilities.
- 12-15 hostages to be released a day over a period of 4-5 days -(Includes 3 Americans (a child age 4 and 2 women)
- 300 trucks per day delivering aid allowed in from Egypt plus fuel
- release of 50 women and children hostages held in Gaza
- a four-day partial ceasefire.
- lull in Israeli military operations would be extended for an additional day for every 10 more hostages released.
- first hostages should be free within 48 hours of the agreement.
- 150 Palestinian women and children would be freed from Israeli jails.
- The release of every 10 additional abductees will result in an additional day of respite.”
Extract from Interview with John Mearsheimer an International Relations Scholar at Chicago University.
Covers the influence of the Israel Lobby in the US, how it operates and how it doesnt necessarily have positive outcomes for Israel in the long term.
Also discussion on the conflation of anti-zionism and anti-Semitisim (relevant to some of what happened on this thread).
Covers the influence of the Israel Lobby in the US, how it operates and how it doesnt necessarily have positive outcomes for Israel in the long term.
Also discussion on the conflation of anti-zionism and anti-Semitisim (relevant to some of what happened on this thread).