Gus Poyet - right or wrong?

[SouthamptonGuy]

In answer to the poster asking if, if he looked like a (Caucasian) monkey and someone said he looked like a monkey, that would be racist, I say no. However, to say for example that all black people look like monkeys and because of that, they possess the physical and social traits of monkeys, IS racist.

That was my point. So if a Saints fan calls Gus a monkey, based on the fact they think his facial features resemble that of a monkey, they are not being racist.

Exactly the same if Brighton fans call Nigel Adkins a monkey, it's not racist.

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

As ever, some thought-provoking thoughts from Poyet. He's got it mostly spot-on, in my opinion.

A case can definitely be made that Evra should have done his homework on what 'negrito'* means before making the accusation that someone had been racist to him. It appears to be the desire to accuse someone of something, without appearing to firm up on the subject matter, was what moved Poyet to say Evra 'went out crying like a baby.' He seems to be saying that Evra has to be pretty bloody sure that the word Suarez used means what Evra imagined it to mean before launching a course of action that leads to someone being accused of racism. I have no problem with that. I know some people have said it's bad timing considering the Stephen Lawrence murder is in the news. Actually, it does not contradict what the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry report says regarding that any incident perceived as racist should be investigated as such. What Gus appears to be saying is that, rather than leave the onus on the authorities to deliberate and decide, with the power to accuse comes the responsibility of the accuser to check his facts first.

* working on the assumption that this is the word Evra is accusing Suarez of saying.

 

[Billy the Fish]

While discussing all of this with my girlfriend I said I occasionally refer to black people as black (look I did it again!) and thought this was OK. She pointed out you wouldn't refer to someone Chinese as 'yellow', which did make me think. Anyone disagree?

This is exactly why we're all so confused in this country.

Black has never been considered derogatory for black people, just as white isn't considered derogatory for white people, but in the last few years people are so desperate not to be thought of as racist that they're scared to say it and it's gradually creeping in that it might now be considered racist to describe someone a black. Absolute madness.

The Chinese/yellow argument is irrelevant, because their skin is is pretty much the same colour as ours so yellow has always been a slightly derogatory term.

 

[Ernest]

As ever, some thought-provoking thoughts from Poyet. He's got it mostly spot-on, in my opinion.

A case can definitely be made that Evra should have done his homework on what 'negrito'* means before making the accusation that someone had been racist to him. It appears to be the desire to accuse someone of something, without appearing to firm up on the subject matter, was what moved Poyet to say Evra 'went out crying like a baby.' He seems to be saying that Evra has to be pretty bloody sure that the word Suarez used means what Evra imagined it to mean before launching a course of action that leads to someone being accused of racism. I have no problem with that. I know some people have said it's bad timing considering the Stephen Lawrence murder is in the news. Actually, it does not contradict what the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry report says regarding that any incident perceived as racist should be investigated as such. What Gus appears to be saying is that, rather than leave the onus on the authorities to deliberate and decide, with the power to accuse comes the responsibility of the accuser to check his facts first.

* working on the assumption that this is the word Evra is accusing Suarez of saying.

Exactly

 

[Lord Bracknell]

http://www.talksport.co.uk/radio/listen-again/episode/58220

Here's that bloke on H&J earlier explaining the South American culture and the word negro. On the 1400-1430 part about 7.20 in

Well worth listening to.

 

[Bold Seagull]

As ever, some thought-provoking thoughts from Poyet. He's got it mostly spot-on, in my opinion.

A case can definitely be made that Evra should have done his homework on what 'negrito'* means before making the accusation that someone had been racist to him. It appears to be the desire to accuse someone of something, without appearing to firm up on the subject matter, was what moved Poyet to say Evra 'went out crying like a baby.' He seems to be saying that Evra has to be pretty bloody sure that the word Suarez used means what Evra imagined it to mean before launching a course of action that leads to someone being accused of racism. I know some people have said it's bad timing considering the Stephen Lawrence murder is in the news, I don't have a problem with that and it actually does not contradict what the Stephen Lawrence Inquiry report says regarding that any incident perceived as racist should be investigated as such. What Gus appears to be saying is that, rather than leave the onus on the authorities to deliberate and decide, with the power to accuse comes the responsibility of the accuser to check his facts first.

* working on the assumption that this is the word Evra is accusing Suarez of saying.

You realise he's said a lot more than just that don't you? I mean the stuff like “You are not racist when you go against one, but [you are] if you go against the whole world of different colour and nationalities. That is being racist, not saying one word in one moment." what does he expect people to conclude, you can't be racist against one person in one moment? Racism is surely all about the discrimination against one person in one moment? Is he saying it's okay for one player to racially abuse another player in one moment? That's what it bloody well sounds like. If I was one of Liverpool's lawyers looking after the Suarez case, I'd be doing one of these right now;

I like others am not really upset with him defending Suarez, but I listened to the whole interview again, and it's far from spot on in my opinion, and I'm entitled to that opinion as much as you are to yours and Gus is to his own.

 

[Easy 10]

First bit, no. Just no.
Second bit. I don't see how calling Gus a monkey is racist. People think his face is similar to that of a monkey. If I think Sam Allardyce looks like a monkey, and call him a monkey, is that a racist comment? If i think Ian Holloway looks like a rat, and call him a rat, does that make it a racist comment?
If you think I look like a monkey, and you call me a monkey. Does that make you racist. (I am Caucasian by the way).

So would making monkey noises at Poyet be ok then ?

That was my point. So if a Saints fan calls Gus a monkey, based on the fact they think his facial features resemble that of a monkey, they are not being racist.

Exactly the same if Brighton fans call Nigel Adkins a monkey, it's not racist.

I see you swerved my question earlier, so I'll ask it again.

You consider that Gus Poyet looks like a monkey. So would you feel that making monkey noises at him is acceptable ? Or should we just file that under "banter" ?

 

[Working class pride]

The only way to know is to place him on a ducking stool and if he drowns then he was innocent.

 

[Hornblower]

You realise he's said a lot more than just that don't you? I mean the stuff like “You are not racist when you go against one, but [you are] if you go against the whole world of different colour and nationalities. That is being racist, not saying one word in one moment." what does he expect people to conclude, you can't be racist against one person in one moment? Racism is surely all about the discrimination against one person in one moment? Is he saying it's okay for one player to racially abuse another player in one moment? That's what it bloody well sounds like. If I was one of Liverpool's lawyers looking after the Suarez case, I'd be doing one of these right now;

I like others am not really upset with him defending Suarez, but I listened to the whole interview again, and it's far from spot on in my opinion, and I'm entitled to that opinion as much as you are to yours and Gus is to his own.

Word.
At best GP was foolish, I don't want to have to consider the worst.

 

[tom26]

[QUOTE=Kazenga thanks

 

[tom26]

, with the power to accuse comes the responsibility of the accuser to check his facts first.
.

Great post, this bit especially. Applies to so much more than this particular situation.

 

[Chicken Runner61]

I certainly don't think Gus should go for this - its not the worst thing he could have said but he is guilty of ignorance.

Its all very well saying he can be excused because he comes from a country that says things like that - but thats the exact reason he should have stayed out of it - When in Rome...

 

[SouthamptonGuy]

I see you swerved my question earlier, so I'll ask it again.

You consider that Gus Poyet looks like a monkey. So would you feel that making monkey noises at him is acceptable ? Or should we just file that under "banter" ?

Where has this monkey noise idea come from?
Making monkey noises at Nigel Adkins or Peter Reid... would not be racist no. Of course it wouldn't. Their race hasn't even entered into any of this process

I guess I can see where you may becoming confused though. The monkey chanting you get in other football stadiums across Europe is aimed at black people and chanted at them solely because they are black. This assumption that all black people are monkeys is racist. In my opinion it's horrible, uneducated, pitiful and it makes my skin crawl how these 'fans' are allowed to get away with it.

That is completely different from calling Peter Reid a monkey. Agree?

 

[Barnham Seagull]

At the most all he should have said was I know Luis and I'm sure he's not a racist, if he said something stupid then I'm sure he would be deeply sorry.

To add to his statement by going onto talksport was even more stupid.

It puts the club in a difficult position and puts us in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons.

Is Gus a racist - no, is he out of line and step with the views in this country - yes.

Very silly he must realise he cannot just say whatever he wants to when he is in the position he is.

The club will have to make a statement soon, if they support Gus views they will cause even more problems and if they critisise Gus they will risk causing a large rift between them.

 

[toff79]

When gus said your not racist against one
What I think or hope he means is that suarez lost his
Temper and said something but has plenty of black friends
An has played for years with black players that he never
Had a problem with if your a racist then you could not do this
So if your racist your racist to all not one

 

[B.W.]

Oooooh dear Gus. That really was not very smart.

Would he expect any of our black players to put up with vile racial abuse on the pitch without complaining, and just get on with it ? Unfortunately, it would seem that yes, yes he would.

Looks like the mouth was ahead of the brain for that interview. Not good.

This

 

[Pevenseagull]

Google ads currently offering "Racism", Racism at Work", "Prejudice" or "Pride and Prejudice"

I love a good algorithm

 

[Pevenseagull]

Google ads currently offering "Racism", Racism at Work", "Prejudice" or "Pride and Prejudice"

I love a good algorithm

N.B. If 'Nibble' is aware of anyone who has made a similar observation in public earlier than I have then I apologise for my blatant plagiarism

 

[Goldstone Rapper]

You realise he's said a lot more than just that don't you? I mean the stuff like “You are not racist when you go against one, but [you are] if you go against the whole world of different colour and nationalities. That is being racist, not saying one word in one moment." what does he expect people to conclude, you can't be racist against one person in one moment? Racism is surely all about the discrimination against one person in one moment? Is he saying it's okay for one player to racially abuse another player in one moment? That's what it bloody well sounds like. If I was one of Liverpool's lawyers looking after the Suarez case, I'd be doing one of these right now;

I like others am not really upset with him defending Suarez, but I listened to the whole interview again, and it's far from spot on in my opinion, and I'm entitled to that opinion as much as you are to yours and Gus is to his own.

As ever, the context is what is decisive, especially with the idiosyncratic way that Poyet often makes his points.

A few days ago, Poyet said of Sepp Blatter: 'I respect him as Fifa president'. That has a particular meaning, especially coming hot on the heels of Blatter's controversial comments about racism. Obviously, we all know the full sentence of 'I respect him as Fifa president but I don't listen to him when he talks about football' which has an altogether different flavour.

In a more elongated way, those sentences that you pick up on also have an unfortunate meaning taken on their own and you describe that unfortunate meaning well. However, those sentences are part of passages where Poyet makes it clear that people have a duty to not racially offend ('I completely adapt. I don't call anyone negro'). So it's not like he is saying it's OK to racially offend someone, even unintentionally, even in one moment. Rather, he wants a single comment to be seen within a much bigger context where all the available evidence suggests a footballer is not racist. I agree the wording is rather ham-fisted, and we should make allowances for his broken English, in the same he is asking allowances to be made for Suarez's adaptation to British culture, but the underlying point is sound. Within the context of the rest of the passage of conversation it was part of, it appears to me that Poyet was trying to say: 'You are not racist when you appear to go against one, but [you are] if you go against the whole world of different colour and nationalities. That is being racist, not saying one word in one moment.'

 

[LamieRobertson]

At the most all he should have said was I know Luis and I'm sure he's not a racist, if he said something stupid then I'm sure he would be deeply sorry.

To add to his statement by going onto talksport was even more stupid.

It puts the club in a difficult position and puts us in the spotlight for all the wrong reasons.

Is Gus a racist - no, is he out of line and step with the views in this country - yes.

Very silly he must realise he cannot just say whatever he wants to when he is in the position he is.

The club will have to make a statement soon, if they support Gus views they will cause even more problems and if they critisise Gus they will risk causing a large rift between them.

i'd agree to talk with that radio station was a bad idea its crap