Gun attack at Batman film premiere in Denver (merged)

[BHAFC_Pandapops]

Its shocking. In england a man just sits in the bog at sainsburys and says he has a bomb. People giggle and say hes mental because he can't/doesn't have a bomb. In the usa some mental wannabe jesus gets a gun and tear gas (how?) from somewhere. I don't get why civvies need tac weapons

 

[dingodan]

its an interesting read if you want to see a stawman argument is constructed to show a flawed point, seems to be based on the mis-belief that no guns means no crime. reality is there is in UK gun related crimes are tiny number. London theres around 0.4-0.6 per 100k population, where as in US there is on average 2.3 gun murders per 100k and a staggering 44 gun assults per 100k. thats a factor of 100. pretty clear cut to me.

You identified the "no guns means no crime" view as a misconception. But what you are suggesting in your US/UK comparison, is that "guns mean crime", which is the same misconception.

The article actually points out, not just that no guns does not mean no crime, but that banning guns leads to more crime, which is supported by the other article showing that the ban on handguns in 1997 led to a 40% increase in handgun crime.

And to be fair the article is a lot more than an argument against a "no guns no crime" strawman. I thought some of this history was really interesting.

This sea change in English crime followed a sea change in government policies. Gun regulations have been part of a more general disarmament based on the proposition that people don't need to protect themselves because society will protect them. It also will protect their neighbors: Police advise those who witness a crime to "walk on by" and let the professionals handle it.

This is a reversal of centuries of common law that not only permitted but expected individuals to defend themselves, their families, and their neighbors when other help was not available. It was a legal tradition passed on to Americans. Personal security was ranked first among an individual's rights by William Blackstone, the great 18th-century exponent of the common law. It was a right, he argued, that no government could take away, since no government could protect the individual in his moment of need. A century later Blackstone's illustrious successor, A.V. Dicey, cautioned, "discourage self-help and loyal subjects become the slaves of ruffians."

But modern English governments have put public order ahead of the individual's right to personal safety. First the government clamped down on private possession of guns; then it forbade people to carry any article that might be used for self-defense; finally, the vigor of that self-defense was to be judged by what, in hindsight, seemed "reasonable in the circumstances."

and

The 1920 Firearms Act was the first serious British restriction on guns. Although crime was low in England in 1920, the government feared massive labor disruption and a Bolshevik revolution. In the circumstances, permitting the people to remain armed must have seemed an unnecessary risk. And so the new policy of disarming the public began. The Firearms Act required a would-be gun owner to obtain a certificate from the local chief of police, who was charged with determining whether the applicant had a good reason for possessing a weapon and was fit to do so. All very sensible. Parliament was assured that the intention was to keep weapons out of the hands of criminals and other dangerous persons. Yet from the start the law's enforcement was far more restrictive, and Home Office instructions to police -- classified until 1989 -- periodically narrowed the criteria.

At first police were instructed that it would be a good reason to have a revolver if a person "lives in a solitary house, where protection against thieves and burglars is essential, or has been exposed to definite threats to life on account of his performance of some public duty." By 1937 police were to discourage applications to possess firearms for house or personal protection. In 1964 they were told "it should hardly ever be necessary to anyone to possess a firearm for the protection of his house or person" and that "this principle should hold good even in the case of banks and firms who desire to protect valuables or large quantities of money."

In 1969 police were informed "it should never be necessary for anyone to possess a firearm for the protection of his house or person." These changes were made without public knowledge or debate. Their enforcement has consumed hundreds of thousands of police hours. Finally, in 1997 handguns were banned. Proposed exemptions for handicapped shooters and the British Olympic team were rejected.

Even more sweeping was the 1953 Prevention of Crime Act, which made it illegal to carry in a public place any article "made, adapted, or intended" for an offensive purpose "without lawful authority or excuse." Carrying something to protect yourself was branded antisocial. Any item carried for possible defense automatically became an offensive weapon. Police were given extensive power to stop and search everyone. Individuals found with offensive items were guilty until proven innocent.

 

[PriapismBoy]

When will America learn that it is Wrong and stupid to sell guns full stop

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

When will America learn that it is Wrong and stupid to sell guns full stop

Sadly Americans just seem to accept these tragedies as a consequence of their right to own guns. It was not even mentioned in the office where I work, people seemed more concerned about why Jeremy Lin had left the Knicks and their weekend plans. It doesn’t mean they don’t care they just seem resigned to it.

Having said that I do not feel anymore threatened living in New York than I did when I worked in London. This kind of shit can happen anywhere these days – look at Norway. New York has some of the strictest gun control laws in America. Mayor Bloomberg wants to tighten those further. He has a tough job fighting against the NRA who are a very powerful lobby group and seem to think the answer to these events is yet more guns.

 

[beorhthelm]

You identified the "no guns means no crime" view as a misconception. But what you are suggesting in your US/UK comparison, is that "guns mean crime", which is the same misconception.

The article actually points out, not just that no guns does not mean no crime, but that banning guns leads to more crime, which is supported by the other article showing that the ban on handguns in 1997 led to a 40% increase in handgun crime.

stop being such a f***ing twat. where did i say "guns mean crime"? go find it. i made a little joke that guns help people kill. you are so f***ing stupid you cant even read properly then create alternative realities of your own. the bbc peice reports nothing other than after a ban, gun crime rose. there is no correllation to other crime as you are pretending. if you love guns, f*** off to some where like Tennesse where they love them too and also have one of the highest gun crime records. either way, the general jist here is to please do f*** off.

 

[dingodan]

stop being such a f***ing twat. where did i say "guns mean crime"? go find it. i made a little joke that guns help people kill. you are so f***ing stupid you cant even read properly then create alternative realities of your own. the bbc peice reports nothing other than after a ban, gun crime rose. there is no correllation to other crime as you are pretending. if you love guns, f*** off to some where like Tennesse where they love them too and also have one of the highest gun crime records. either way, the general jist here is to please do f*** off.

pottymouth.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

10 dead early reports. Only in America.

Raoul Moat
Thomas Hamilton
Derrick Bird
Anders Behring Breivik
Michael Ryan
Martin Bryant (shot dead 37 people in Tasmania)
Tim Kretschmer (shot 15 dead in Bavaria)
etc

Clearly, it is easy enough to get hold of guns in the US, but if someone's going to do it, they'll have a go wherever they live, not just in America.

 

[Ⓩ-Ⓐ-Ⓜ-Ⓞ-Ⓡ-Ⓐ]

Raoul Moat
Thomas Hamilton
Derrick Bird
Anders Behring Breivik
Michael Ryan
Martin Bryant (shot dead 37 people in Tasmania)
Tim Kretschmer (shot 15 dead in Bavaria)
etc

Clearly, it is easy enough to get hold of guns in the US, but if someone's going to do it, they'll have a go wherever they live, not just in America.

But there are clearly many more cases of random public shootings in the US than any other country.

 

[patchamalbion]

They do in Canada too, but they don't go round shooting each other.

i swear just last week some guy shot and killed 2 at a party in Toronto and injured 10+

 

[Bold Seagull]

Raoul Moat
Thomas Hamilton
Derrick Bird
Anders Behring Breivik
Michael Ryan
Martin Bryant (shot dead 37 people in Tasmania)
Tim Kretschmer (shot 15 dead in Bavaria)
etc

Clearly, it is easy enough to get hold of guns in the US, but if someone's going to do it, they'll have a go wherever they live, not just in America.

I don't think you're going to stop a Brievik or a Moat, but in the US, a disgruntled teenager can get access to his Dad's arsenal of weapons in the garage, and walk into school. In Europe, this would take a lot more premeditated planning, getting hold of suitable firearms etc.

Your list is worldwide over 1/4 of a century or more, this is a list of shootings in US schools just in the last 10 years...In Europe there was less than this in an entire century!


Martin Luther King, Jr. High School shooting Manhattan, New York January 15 2002 0
Appalachian School of Law shooting Grundy, Virginia January 16 2002 3
John McDonogh High School shooting New Orleans, Louisiana April 14 2003 1
University of Arizona Nursing School shooting Tucson, Arizona October, 28 2002 4
Red Lion Area Junior High School shootings Red Lion, Pennsylvania April 24 2003 2
Case Western Reserve University shooting Cleveland, Ohio May 9 2003 1
Rocori High School shooting Cold Spring, Minnesota September 24 2003 2
Columbia High School shooting East Greenbush, New York February 9 2004 0
Fairleigh Dickinson University shooting Florham Park, New Jersey April 4 2004 2
Randallstown High School shooting Randallstown, Maryland May 7 2004 0
Red Lake Senior High School massacre Red Lake, Minnesota March 21 2005 8
Campbell County High School shooting Jacksboro, Tennessee November 8 2005 1
Pine Middle School shooting Reno, Nevada March 14 2006 0
Essex Elementary School shooting[53] Essex, Vermont August 24 2006 2
Orange High School shooting Hillsborough, North Carolina August 30 2006 1
Platte Canyon High School shooting Bailey, Colorado September 27 2006 2
Weston High School shooting Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29 2006 2
Amish school shooting Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania October 2 2006 6
Henry Foss High School shooting Tacoma, Washington January 3 2007 1
Herbert Henry Dow High School Midland, Michigan March 8 2007 1
University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, North Carolina March 24 2007 0[54]
University of Washington shooting Seattle, Washington April 2 2007 2
Virginia Tech massacre Blacksburg, Virginia April 16 2007 32
Delaware State University shooting Dover, Delaware September 21 2007 1
SuccessTech Academy shooting Cleveland, Ohio October 10 2007 1
Louisiana Technical College shooting Baton Rouge, Louisiana February 8 2008 3
Mitchell High School shooting Memphis, Tennessee February 11 2008 0
E.O. Green School shooting Oxnard, California February 12 2008 1
Northern Illinois University massacre DeKalb, Illinois February 14 2008 6
Davidson High School Shooting Mobile, Alabama March 9 2008 1
Central High School shooting Knoxville, Tennessee August 21 2008 1
Henry Ford High School shooting Detroit, Michigan October 16 2008 1
2008 University of Central Arkansas shootings Conway, Arkansas October 27 2008 2
Dillard High School shooting Fort Lauderdale, Florida November 12 2008 1
Henry Ford Community College shooting Dearborn, Michigan April 10 2009 2
Hampton University Hampton, Virginia April 26 2009 0
Covina High School shooting Covina, California April 30 2009 0[55]
Wesleyan University1 Middletown, Connecticut May 1 2009 1
Canandaigua Academy shooting Canandaigua, New York May 5 2009 1
Harvard University Cambridge, Massachusetts May 18 2009 1[56]
Larose-Cut Off Middle School shooting Larose, Louisiana May 18 2009 1
Skyline College shooting San Bruno, California September 2 2009 0
Atlanta University Center Atlanta, Georgia September 3 2009 1[57]
Deer Valley High School shooting Antioch, California September 16 2009 0
Northern Virginia Community College Woodbridge, Virginia December 8 2009 0
Discovery Middle School Madison, Alabama February 5 2010 1[58]
University of Alabama in Huntsville Huntsville, Alabama February 12 2010 3[59]
Deer Creek Middle School Littleton, Colorado February 23 2010 0[60]
Birney Elementary School Tacoma, Washington February 26 2010 1[61]
Ohio State University Columbus, Ohio March 9 2010 2[62]
Belleville Township HS East Belleville, Illinois August 17 2010 1[63]
University of Texas at Austin Austin, Texas September 28 2010 1[64]
Alisal High School Salinas, California October 1 2010 1[65][66]
Mid-Atlantic Christian University Elizabeth City, North Carolina October 3 2010 1[67]
Kelly Elementary School Carlsbad, California October 8 2010 2 (wounded)[68][69]
Marinette High School Marinette, Wisconsin November 29 2010 1[70]
Millard South High School shooting Omaha, Nebraska, United States January 5 2011 2[71]
Martinsville West Middle School Martinsville, Indiana March 25 2011 0[72]
Worthing High School Houston, Texas March 30 2011 1[73]
Ross Elementary School Houston, Texas April 19 2011 0[74]
San Jose State University San Jose, California May 10 2011 3[75]
Pearl City Middle School Pearl City, Hawaii May 23 2011 1[76]
Cape Fear High School shooting Fayetteville, North Carolina October 24 2011 0[77]
2011 Virginia Tech shooting Blacksburg, Virginia December 8 2011 2 [78]
Walpole Elementary School Walpole, New Hampshire February 10 2012 1 (injury) [79]
Chardon High School shooting Chardon, Ohio February 27 2012 3
Oikos University shooting Oakland, California April 2 2012 7

 

[ifuhatepalacestandup]

stop being such a f***ing twat. where did i say "guns mean crime"? go find it. i made a little joke that guns help people kill. you are so f***ing stupid you cant even read properly then create alternative realities of your own. the bbc peice reports nothing other than after a ban, gun crime rose. there is no correllation to other crime as you are pretending. if you love guns, f*** off to some where like Tennesse where they love them too and also have one of the highest gun crime records. either way, the general jist here is to please do f*** off.

thank christ someone with anger managment problems like you cant own a hand gun in the uk

 

[Questions]

If it is written in their constitution then change it. Can't be that difficult. I,ll lend them a Biro.

f***ing numbnuts that lot at times.

 

[PriapismBoy]

If it is written in their constitution then change it. Can't be that difficult. I,ll lend them a Biro.

f***ing numbnuts that lot at times.

Agreed, stupid yanks

 

[Mutts Nuts]

10 dead early reports. Only in America.

Where they coincidently the stupid barstads still believe in God,as do the Arab countries.I find it hilarious that the 2 places still using religion as control of the public through fear are still the 2 most fcuked up places in the world.All forms of religion should be made illegal world wide

 

[GingerBeerMan]

If it is written in their constitution then change it. Can't be that difficult. I,ll lend them a Biro.

f***ing numbnuts that lot at times.

 

[Gullys Cats]

Very sad

 

[JamesAndTheGiantHead]

Clearly, it is easy enough to get hold of guns in the US, but if someone's going to do it, they'll have a go wherever they live, not just in America.

Which is why it happens more in America than anywhere else. Every country has its nutters, but in America, most of the nutters have assault rifles.



The man at the end of this video makes sense.

 

[Barrel of Fun]

Where they coincidently the stupid barstads still believe in God,as do the Arab countries.I find it hilarious that the 2 places still using religion as control of the public through fear are still the 2 most fcuked up places in the world.All forms of religion should be made illegal world wide

They are two pimpled buttocks from the same arse (apologies if I stole that from someone on here).

 

[beorhthelm]

thank christ someone with anger managment problems like you cant own a hand gun in the uk

but its fine if i could according to some.