[News] Grenfell

[Blue3]

Speaking on the 7th day of the inquiry a women told about her 65 yo mother who was housed on the 18th floor despite being partially sighted and got around using a tri-walker.
The 65-year-old grandmother died alongside her sister Fatemeh, who had been visiting her.
And if you think all that is sad wait until you hear this-
The inquiry heard that Fatemah's husband was unable to pay tribute to the mother of five because his immigration application was refused. Really, what sort of country are we? He should have been picked up and driven to the inquiry if they felt he was unsafe.


Sorry, just so angry that I had to write something.

I totally agree while in France an immigrant climbs a building to save a child and the very next day the President grants him citizenship a job and a medal I am sometimes surprised and embarrassed by our lack of compassion when we have a Tory Government in power

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Have you only just realised this obvious racialism ?

No, I've tried to ignore it, in the past. I shall do again in the future.

 

[The Optimist]

So they gave inadequate advise, condemned many to a dreadful death but hold no responsibility? If its not part or their remit , what is? You talk about notions, the Large One talks about assumptions, does anyone have any facts based data on this? people were in their flats for up to four hours waiting for advise and guidance, neither came. There will be multi layers of responsibility at Grenfell, I hope we get some real facts and not some 'I would like to thank the emergency services' diatribe from investigators. The truth will out and I await for outcomes or recommendations, but given the time its taken to deal with the Shoreham Air Crash, I might not be aroun by that time.

You might find the recommendations from the Lakanal House fire interesting to read. From memory the fire brigade were criticised for telling people to stay put for too long after it became clear the fire was spreading more than it should have done.

What will be telling is how many issues highlighted after Lakanal House were still present at Grenfell, eight years later.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I doubt if the circumstances of this conflagration are unique and I doubt that nobody had any idea of what could happen. Your thesis is far too simplified, it would be better to wait for more information to come from the inquiry.

I haven't got a thesis. I know what firefighters were told to do in regards to tower blocks.

 

[Blue3]

I have friends in immigration so it annoys me that the staff there, who are overworked and underpaid, are vilified for the decisions they make, despite the fact they act in accordance with immigration law. It sounds more like an entry clearance issue then, and he would have had to demonstrate an intention to return after the inquiry. We are only hearing his side of the story as the official side will never comment. And surely he would have had a right of appeal (I don't know, just surmising).

It's not immigration employees to blame it's the laws put forward by Governments and in turn you and I for voting those Governments into a position that they can put these laws into practice

 

[Brighton Mod]

I haven't got a thesis. I know what firefighters were told to do in regards to tower blocks.

Then I must bow to your superior knowledge, but the inquiry will probably give a better insight. If you feel i'm pointing the finger at firefighters, please read my first post o the subject.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I totally agree while in France an immigrant climbs a building to save a child and the very next day the President grants him citizenship a job and a medal I am sometimes surprised and embarrassed by our lack of compassion when we have a Tory Government in power

It's not a lack of compassion, this government has deliberately changed the rules, to be even more heartless, targetting anyone who may not be able to produce documents entitling them to be hear ie Windrush, a Danish citizen who has been a councillor serving Ipswich as a mayor (through marriage has a British name!!) and all sorts of horror stories which have emerged in the last few months. Amber Rudd has taken the brunt, but she is just a pawn in something our prime minister started in 2015.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Then I must bow to your superior knowledge, but the inquiry will probably give a better insight. If you feel i'm pointing the finger at firefighters, please read my first post o the subject.

I am referring to just one instruction which is stay in your flats.

Of course the cause and effect is a lot more complicated than that, and I wouldn't presume to know any more about the situation.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I have friends in immigration so it annoys me that the staff there, who are overworked and underpaid, are vilified for the decisions they make, despite the fact they act in accordance with immigration law. It sounds more like an entry clearance issue then, and he would have had to demonstrate an intention to return after the inquiry. We are only hearing his side of the story as the official side will never comment. And surely he would have had a right of appeal (I don't know, just surmising).

I have been a civil servant which is why I named Theresa May, who changed the rules in 2015. Civil servants shouldn't be villified for politician's decisions, and I hope you don't think I was blaming the workers.

Having said that, it is hard to defend incompetence when it occurs. This is today, right now.

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1002473926029664256

[tweet]1002473926029664256[/tweet]

 

[beorhthelm]

So they gave inadequate advise, condemned many to a dreadful death but hold no responsibility? If its not part or their remit , what is? You talk about notions, the Large One talks about assumptions, does anyone have any facts based data on this?

you're playing on semantics and ignoring whats being said. i'll try another way. the advice is based on expected fire specification being followed, and it is apparent this was not the case. now advice has changed because they do not trust that specifications are being followed (or correct). this is not "usful" after the event, its a response to the event. the fire was not suppose to climb the building, that is outside of the expected scenarios. the inquiry will confirm what we all ready saw, the question will be how did the regulations come to be bypassed.

 

[The Clamp]

The reason this issue will never get resolved and why Grenfell's will occur again is because they have used the cladding as a scapegoat. It's cheap and easy to replace and by re-cladding and testing it looks like they are solving the problem. They're not. The problem lies in the gas piping in these buildings and until that is ripped out and replaced all high rises are at risk. Wait until that revelation is made public. Lots of people with lots of blood on their hands.

 

[Brighton Mod]

you're playing on semantics and ignoring whats being said. i'll try another way. the advice is based on expected fire specification being followed, and it is apparent this was not the case. now advice has changed because they do not trust that specifications are being followed (or correct). this is not "usful" after the event, its a response to the event. the fire was not suppose to climb the building, that is outside of the expected scenarios. the inquiry will confirm what we all ready saw, the question will be how did the regulations come to be bypassed.

Irrespective of how you phrase your point, the wrong advise was given, this gives us an opportunity to trace sources and pinpoint the timeline/doument line where safety was comprimised. Advice was given incorrectly, lives were lost and those rsponsible for fire safety all the way up the line hold responsibility and that includes LFB, of this there is no doubt, multiple failure and responsibility. No semantics, I seek an establishment of facts and we will all know.

 

[CheeseRolls]

The reason this issue will never get resolved and why Grenfell's will occur again is because they have used the cladding as a scapegoat. It's cheap and easy to replace and by re-cladding and testing it looks like they are solving the problem. They're not. The problem lies in the gas piping in these buildings and until that is ripped out and replaced all high rises are at risk. Wait until that revelation is made public. Lots of people with lots of blood on their hands.

Some of the initial reports suggested that there were issues with the gas pipes fitted as part of the refurbishment, which were running up the main lift shaft and had not been properly sealed, but the evidence against the cladding and the way it was fitted, is pretty damning and all the suggestions are that the fire was driven up the outside of the building. Unless you know otherwise.

 

[CheeseRolls]

I’m confused with the numbers reported. Grenfell housed up to 600 people. And in a fire when most people would be at home in bed, 80 people died and 255 were evacuated. Unless I have my figures wrong, what has happened to the other 250 people?

In case anyone is taken in by this bullshit. Here is the detail of the painstaking work that was undertaken, as part of the investigation. Anyone with an ounce of decency would understand what a bloody tough job this is.

http://news.met.police.uk/news/upda...l-tower-fire-formally-identified-is-70-276398

 

[jaghebby]

Yes there has been underinvestment in housing , this doesnt detract from the fact that immigrants are being allocated social housing whilst british people are languishing on the waiting list for decades , ive seen it first hand

How have you seen it first hand? I used to work for a local authourity and know for a fact that not to be the case. Also now when you say British do you actually mean white?

 

[The Clamp]

Some of the initial reports suggested that there were issues with the gas pipes fitted as part of the refurbishment, which were running up the main lift shaft and had not been properly sealed, but the evidence against the cladding and the way it was fitted, is pretty damning and all the suggestions are that the fire was driven up the outside of the building. Unless you know otherwise.

I do actually know a fair bit about it through someone I know but, and not to sound all mysterious, it's not chat room conversation.

 

[Spicy]

I have been a civil servant which is why I named Theresa May, who changed the rules in 2015. Civil servants shouldn't be villified for politician's decisions, and I hope you don't think I was blaming the workers.

No I didn't think you were doing that but thanks for the clarification.

 

[Spicy]

It's not immigration employees to blame it's the laws put forward by Governments and in turn you and I for voting those Governments into a position that they can put these laws into practice

Very true and unfortunately in immigration the same mistakes are made time and time again.

 

[alfredmizen]

Your willingness to jump all over immigrants just baffles me. What you say here may be true, but there may be good reason for it. Your marriage breaks down? Sorry, don't want to sound harsh here as it could happen to anyone, but why should the state pick up the pieces? If an immigrant's marriage breaks down and he walks into a flat then you may have a point, but otherwise you're comparing apples to oranges.

As you know, I have a degree of sympathy with your PoV with regard to British working classes being ignored, but other times you don't do yourself any favours and this just appears nothing more than a racist outburst. I wouldn't expect anyone's marriage break up to be handled by the state for a start.

I've just had a look at Camden's social housing points system (it was the first one that came up in my google search) and it's very complicated (last page gives the points system at a glance):

https://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/cms-service/stream/asset/?asset_id=3573104&

If you can be arsed, perhaps you can point out where this inherently favours immigrants over the rest of us.

simster , i dont even have to look at it , they turn up with f*ck knows how many kids and boom heres your flat , tell me why a syrian asylum seeker whod been here 9 months had a flat in grenfell ? as for my marriage , i was homeless, i didnt expect the state to pick up the pieces , i expected it to house me before people who had been here a matter of weeks , i was sadly disappointed

 

[alfredmizen]

How have you seen it first hand? I used to work for a local authourity and know for a fact that not to be the case. Also now when you say British do you actually mean white?

it happens to be the case that most recent immigrants arent white , but no , i mean british , not white so you can take your attempt at deflection and i think you know where you can stick it.