Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election

[seagullsovergrimsby]

Jesus. The Greeks really are a bunch of amateurs.

You can't win when the odds are stacked against you. Merkel wants to squeeze the pips.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

I don't think so.

Its easy for Tsipras to go to the country and say "I tried as part of the last minute negotiations but Europe said no".

I think the current market rally is bullsh*t.

The same scenario will happen when Cameron comes back with his tail between his legs on EU concessions for the BREXIT referendum and tells the electorate he tried his best but they bluntly told him to **** off.

 

[Buzzer]

No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to join the EU. No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to join the euro. No one put a gun to the Greek's heads to spend uncontrollably. Maybe someone should have put a gun to the Greek's heads over fiscal attitudes though. I have sympathy with their position, but a lot of it is their own doing. They are accountable for their actions no matter how much this is dressed up as EU bullying. I do believe that ultimately a mutually agreeable situation will eventually come out though.

As an aside, I do find it interesting how some on this thread (not necessarily you) are quick to blame Labour for supposedly profligate spending and taxing but all to quick to jump to Greece's defence when they have shown to be the absolute masters.

I never said that they had a gun to their head to join the Euro although when the Greeks did apply there's pretty good evidence that the French and Germans colluded with the fudge and gave their support in return for the massive defence contracts. It's interesting how everyone blames Greek culture for this debt but it wasn't something that turned up newly-born with the Euro, it's always been there yet only now have the Greeks defaulted and the reason for the default isn't the manageable Greek laziness/tax evasion debt but the unpayable and much larger politicians' debt borne from politicians colluding with each other to join the Euro, then colluding with each other to take on loans for guns. But it's the Greek people who must pay whilst the politicians play their games.

If you're going to blame Greek culture then I'd like to see the debt split between that due to the culture and that bit due to the loans the French and Germans gave to the Greeks in return for these dodgy deals, that seems fair. It would certainly muddy the water on who has the moral high ground here. And please spare me the holier-than-thou attitude of the EU over this. Who are they to lecture about fiscal responsibility and prudence when corruption is endemic within and their own audited accounts haven't been cleared in forever?

This is clearly EU bullying of the very worst kind and what upsets me, and I really mean that, is that it is now very clear that it's institutions and control that matter and only matter - no the people of Europe. Whatever road Greece took to get to this state we are here now and it's absolutely dire for Greeks. The Troika want to impose decades of austerity on a country that simply cannot pay anymore, and the EU cannot and will not consider any alternative because agreements and institutions must be honoured and to hell with the human aspect. I've already mentioned the risk of Greece veering to the far-right or even worse under the spell of Putin. For a body that claims to be inclusive and pluralistic its actions are incredibly insular and short-sighted.

If the EU lays claim to sovereignty of law over its member states then it must also take ultimate responsibility for the welfare of the people within it. I've yet to read anything of substance, in fact I'm not sure I have read anything at all from any of the creditors where they express empathy for the ordinary Greek folk let alone any initiatives to alleviate any suffering this bloody awful mess has caused.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

http://c.files.bbci.co.uk/171A3/production/_83972649_a02d2b44-59a1-4f4c-9538-6628cf6c52f8.jpg

tweet: A massive 'Oxi' [No] banner has been unfurled from inside the Greek Finance Ministry. I can't imagine it at HMT

(From the BBC Business page)

 

[TomandJerry]

Just days ahead of the Greek referendum, the International Monetary Fund has said the struggling country needs €50bn of extra funds over the next three years. It also requires large scale debt relief to create “a breathing space” and stabilise the economy. Larry Elliott and Phillip Inman write:

With three days to go before a knife-edge referendum, the IMF revealed a deep split with Europe as it warned that Greece’s debts were “unsustainable”.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I never said that they had a gun to their head to join the Euro although when the Greeks did apply there's pretty good evidence that the French and Germans colluded with the fudge and gave their support in return for the massive defence contracts. It's interesting how everyone blames Greek culture for this debt but it wasn't something that turned up newly-born with the Euro, it's always been there yet only now have the Greeks defaulted and the reason for the default isn't the manageable Greek laziness/tax evasion debt but the unpayable and much larger politicians' debt borne from politicians colluding with each other to join the Euro, then colluding with each other to take on loans for guns. But it's the Greek people who must pay whilst the politicians play their games.

If you're going to blame Greek culture then I'd like to see the debt split between that due to the culture and that bit due to the loans the French and Germans gave to the Greeks in return for these dodgy deals, that seems fair. It would certainly muddy the water on who has the moral high ground here. And please spare me the holier-than-thou attitude of the EU over this. Who are they to lecture about fiscal responsibility and prudence when corruption is endemic within and their own audited accounts haven't been cleared in forever?

This is clearly EU bullying of the very worst kind and what upsets me, and I really mean that, is that it is now very clear that it's institutions and control that matter and only matter - no the people of Europe. Whatever road Greece took to get to this state we are here now and it's absolutely dire for Greeks. The Troika want to impose decades of austerity on a country that simply cannot pay anymore, and the EU cannot and will not consider any alternative because agreements and institutions must be honoured and to hell with the human aspect. I've already mentioned the risk of Greece veering to the far-right or even worse under the spell of Putin. For a body that claims to be inclusive and pluralistic its actions are incredibly insular and short-sighted.

If the EU lays claim to sovereignty of law over its member states then it must also take ultimate responsibility for the welfare of the people within it. I've yet to read anything of substance, in fact I'm not sure I have read anything at all from any of the creditors where they express empathy for the ordinary Greek folk let alone any initiatives to alleviate any suffering this bloody awful mess has caused.

I couldn't agree with you more. I've always been pro European but I'll be voting to leave now. Really shown their true colours.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Referendum today.

What will tomorrow bring?

If it's yes, then the Government will probably have to resign, and call an election.

No, and will the process of Greece leaving the Euro and the EU start?

 

[TomandJerry]

Referendum today.

What will tomorrow bring?

If it's yes, then the Government will probably have to resign, and call an election.

No, and will the process of Greece leaving the Euro and the EU start?

"Sources: If there’s a NO tonight Greek govt will send negotiators back to Brussels tomo to recommence negotiations w/ eurogroup immediately"

"As we flagged earlier, finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has claimed that in the event of a NO vote, a deal can be reached with creditors “within 24 hours.”"

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Polls close at 5pm UK time.

Looks likely that it's going to be a 'No'

 

[TomandJerry]

"Our correspondent Helena Smith has learned that sources close to the EU commission in Brussels are estimating that the NO vote could be ahead by 8 -10 points.

But Helena says we really don’t know how reliable the figure is as we don’t know what methodology was used to come up with this figure.

She adds:

Based, however, on anecdotal evidence a lot of middle class Greeks, who I spoke to today - and who would normally be firmly European and totally committed to their country’s continued role in the heart of Europe - conveyed how they had simply given up hope.

Younger middle class Greeks, with young children, said they were voting ‘no’ in the hope that at least that way their kids would have some kind of future. None of them seem to have been swayed by the fear factor: that of they voted ‘no’ the country would be kicked out of the euro."

 

[beorhthelm]

"As we flagged earlier, finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has claimed that in the event of a NO vote, a deal can be reached with creditors “within 24 hours.”"

if there wasnt so much at stake for the Greeks, this blind faith would be amusing. doesnt the other side have some say in this? Syriza constantly fail to recognise that they do not have a position of power in these negotiations, and a no vote from the Greek people doesnt alter this.

 

[TomandJerry]

TAKE YOUR SEATS FOR DRAMA.

Polling booths across Greece have just closed, as a referendum that could determine the country’s place in the eurozone comes to an end.

Local media report that voting was brisk, similar to January’s turnout, as voters had their say in a contest that has electrified Greece, and beyond.

Finance minister Yanis Varoufakis has told CNBC that Greece could reach a deal with its creditors within 24 hours, if Greeks vote No today.

Straw polling has suggested that the No side may be ahead, but the full result may not be known for many hours.

 

[TomandJerry]

Live results: Greek referendum, follow via the link:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jul/05/live-results-greek-referendum

 

[Vegas Seagull]

Live results: Greek referendum, follow via the link:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jul/05/live-results-greek-referendum

Telling us when the first result is due would be appreciated!?

 

[TomandJerry]

Telling us when the first result is due would be appreciated!?

"Straw polling has suggested that the No side may be ahead, but the full result may not be known for many hours."

 

[Hampster Gull]

"Straw polling has suggested that the No side may be ahead, but the full result may not be known for many hours."

That eould improve the creditors offer i suspect

 

[TomandJerry]

That eould improve the creditors offer i suspect

A NO vote will leave them out of the Euro and EU I would imagine

 

[Hampster Gull]

A NO vote will leave them out of the Euro and EU I would imagine

Possibly but i suspect they would be offered a better deal first, whether they take it pass

 

[TomandJerry]

"Sources in Syriza are saying that top government officials, including state minister and chief negotiator Nikos Pappas, the Greek prime minister’s closest political ally, have “packed their bags and are ready to return to Brussels” to relaunch negotiations, "

Not sure what they can negotiate with a NO vote

 

[beorhthelm]

regardless of the outcome, they still have to go to Brussels to "negotiate" a deal. they are broke and their banks remain shut without external emergency funding.