Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election

[beorhthelm]

I tend to agree with this. But it has to come with a reform package from the Greeks; they can't carry on the way they have been. I'm not sure the current government are able to deliver this though.

well quite, and the whole past 6 mths has been Europe trying to make an accomodation while Greeks try to hold out for "no austerity". what i read though is the unilateral abandonment of talks and calling this referendum really upset alot of people in europe, thats no how they expect to do business. no one can have missed the way european leaders spoke in the last week, it was not the normal conciliatory language.

those calling for debt restructing and relief seem to overlook this already happened to large extent, when the ECB and EU brought up all the government debt that no one else will touch, on new 30 year low interest terms. further the Greeks are asking for a new loan of ~30bn to see them through the next few years.

and those pointing at democracy, like Lucas quote above, overlook that the rest of population of europe havent had a say on whether they want to spend more money on Greece. i'm finding it odd how this glaring asymmetry of democractic input is ignored.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

well quite, and the whole past 6 mths has been Europe trying to make an accomodation while Greeks try to hold out for "no austerity".

those calling for debt restructing and relief seem to overlook this already happened to large extent, when the ECB and EU brought up all the government debt that no one else will touch, on new 30 year low interest terms. further the Greeks are asking for a new loan of ~30bn to see them through the next few years.

and those pointing at democracy, like Lucas quote above, overlook that the rest of population of europe havent had a say on whether they want to spend more money on Greece. i'm finding it odd how this glaring asymmetry of democractic input is ignored.

I totally agree.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Hopefully the very early beginning of the end of the Euro ..... oh how good that would be.

 

[sir albion]

Hopefully the very early beginning of the end of the Euro ..... oh how good that would be.

Absolutely

 

[Hampster Gull]

Hopefully the very early beginning of the end of the Euro ..... oh how good that would be.

Why? It can work for a core set of economies, just not the batch in there now

 

[TomandJerry]

Two thirds of the ballot papers have now been counted, and the No campaign is still holding firm with over 61% of votes.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Why? It can work for a core set of economies, just not the batch in there now

Because my furry little gull, it has shown up the EU not to give a toss about it's citizens - the first part of dismanteling the corrupt EU will be the collapse of it's currency. I wonder how quickly the Germans will be complaining when they are forced to take their own bedsheets to hospital or their relatives are dying on chairs in the corridor when their economy implodes ? Remembering of course that currently a life in Germany, France or the Netherlands is worth much more that one in Greece, Italy or Spain when playing by EU rules.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

OK a bit simplistic but if you generate unsupportable debts with much of the spending being on weapons, your people should be made to suffer in perpetuity but, if you actually use weapons to invade the rest of the continent, the world will, rightly, rally round to help you rebuild your country.

 

[Buzzer]

and those pointing at democracy, like Lucas quote above, overlook that the rest of population of europe havent had a say on whether they want to spend more money on Greece. i'm finding it odd how this glaring asymmetry of democractic input is ignored.

They will have a say through their national elections, sure enough.

But to argue now that it's the people of Europe who ought to decide on things rather than Eurocrats is laughable. Did Germans have a vote on whether Greece should join the Euro? Did the French have a vote on whether Spain should receive grants for huge capital projects such as their useless new airports? Did we British get a vote on whether EU funds should be given to the Irish to build their motorways? Ultimately it amounts to the same thing. It's money we are giving that we will never see again.

To try to claim that the most pro-EU countries who hate referenda and have, as Larus has pointed out, forced other countries to re-run them until they get the result they desire are being hard done by here is risible. And where do you want this to end? Will they also have a vote on whoever next the ECB decides to lend to? Should there be a referendum whenever a country lends money to another country? Should Finland get a referendum on whether Portugal should remain in the EU as a sick member state? No - they all joined with a common purpose and common risk.

 

[nicko31]

I have no doubt they are printing the drachma right now.There should be a further lifeline to the Greek, they have been give an ultimatum and they have hit the nuke button. Amazing they are still in denial, they think they are Greek Gods but sorry they are the CPFC of Europe

Can see a tourist boom for the Greeks very soon everyone will be flocking there

Notice the Euro is steady, think the market already have Greece's exit priced in

 

[yxee]

I refer you to my previous post where I say that Greek debt should be split between that caused by Greek operational culture and that caused by France and Germany forcing them to become the 4th biggest buyer in the world of conventional weapons as a way of France and Germany looking the other way as Greece adopts the Euro fraudulently.

Buyer beware.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Can see a tourist boom for the Greeks very soon everyone will be flocking there

Poor sods. First their economic problems, now they're going to be overrun with British lager louts. Gotta feel for them.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Could be worse, could be ex pat British know alls......

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Could be worse, could be ex pat British know alls......

Come on, most posters on here think they're experts on something or other.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Because my furry little gull, it has shown up the EU not to give a toss about it's citizens - the first part of dismanteling the corrupt EU will be the collapse of it's currency. I wonder how quickly the Germans will be complaining when they are forced to take their own bedsheets to hospital or their relatives are dying on chairs in the corridor when their economy implodes ? Remembering of course that currently a life in Germany, France or the Netherlands is worth much more that one in Greece, Italy or Spain when playing by EU rules.

Wow [MENTION=1205]keitho54[/MENTION] - a thumbs down from someone that last posted in January !!! Come on then, at least explain your position or is typing too difficult for you ?

 

[Hampster Gull]

To further push the point home - in your words the Greeks have been doing this for decades but only since joining the Euro have they found themselves in the shit. Ever wonder why that was?.

I know why, its a single currency without single fiscal accountability. The reason the Greeks got away with it before was they could (and did) devalue the Drachma which ultimately makes people of poorer.That is why the Greek people wanted the stability of the Euro. But that stability comes with responsibility that they haven't worn very well. They have been mislead by their leaders

 

[Hampster Gull]

Because my furry little gull, it has shown up the EU not to give a toss about it's citizens - the first part of dismanteling the corrupt EU will be the collapse of it's currency. I wonder how quickly the Germans will be complaining when they are forced to take their own bedsheets to hospital or their relatives are dying on chairs in the corridor when their economy implodes ? Remembering of course that currently a life in Germany, France or the Netherlands is worth much more that one in Greece, Italy or Spain when playing by EU rules.

The approach has been crass but I don't buy the last point. The creditors will offer a better deal, the Greeks will accept but with more pain and they will move on for a bit. At some point a wad of debt will need to be written off. Dont borrow what you cant pay off.

 

[yxee]

Basically that was a very expensive way of saying "we don't accept your terms".

 

[Murray 17]

Greece seems to think the basic laws of economics, cause and effect and people's behaviour don't apply to them.

1 They overspend for years

2 Paying taxes in Greece is almost optional

3 Copnsequently they have a massive deficit

4 The first rule - when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. Greece digs faster than ever

5 Another rule - when you owe money, try to keep your credtiors on your side. Greece slags them off

6 People naturally don't like austerity. A political party comes along as says we are against austerity. People vote for it.

7 So what? I don't like English rain. Voting against it doesn't change the reality.

8 The Greek Government say voting against austerity doesn't mean they will have to leave Europe and leave the euro. What planet do these people live on?

9 The people believe them. Incredible.

This isn't an economy, it's a car crash.

Absolutely!

It's a bit like someone spending more than they earn, then telling a friend who keeps lending them money to pay their debts that they will accept their loan - "but don't expect me to change my lifestyle."

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Dont borrow what you cant pay off.

Indeed but that could equally be stated as :

"Don't lend what you're not prepared to lose"

or

"Don't lend to someone who is already financially bankrupt"