Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election

[Driver8]

This exemplifies the ridiculousness of the system. Why should they need to "borrow" imaginary wealth to get any work done? They have over 10 million workers, they could end their unemployment, homelessness and poverty problems themselves, if they had the confidence to choose a more sensible economic system. Greece is amazingly fertile and relatively sparsely populated, it is better prepared to be self sufficient than most.

World debt is insanity, it weighs almost every country down and it's never going to go away while we persist with this broken system.

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_greece_imports.html

$61b of imports in 2013. Can't pay for that with Ouzo.

 

[beorhthelm]

... or just scrap the ridiculous system entirely. Who exactly benefits from it all?

which system, capitialism or the Euro? the former everyone, learn history and you'll understand one day. the latter is a bit more complicated, some like to say everyone in the Euro, others say its the Germans mainly.

 

[Triggaaar]

Harsh given the EU turned a complete blind eye to the rules and allowed Greece to join it's political experiment called the Euro.

Allowed, not forced. Greece decided what was best for them, and they decided that was joining the Euro.

Then to help the situation Germany gave Greece huge amounts of cheap credit and encoraged Greece to spend it on large construction projects supplied by, you've guessed it, German construction companies.

Encouraged - again, it's up to Greece where they spend their money.

The general population of Greece seem to think it's ok to get paid by the government for doing **** all, and then retire at 50. As long as they have that attitude, their country is doomed, and there's no point wasting money to bail them out time and time again. Harsh, but fair in my opinion.

 

[Triggaaar]

We live in a globalised world now - the age of the nation state is ending, the real divisions are now those with money and those without it, rather than nationalities.

You know that's absolute bollox. I'd rather be a baby born to a poor family in the UK, than in Africa. Free education and health care, and a great chance of a good future. I know plenty of people born to poor families, that have done very well.

Working people all around the world need to look after one another.

But humans don't operate like that Mustafa. You seem to be stuck in a repeating dream, far away from the harsh realities of the world.

 

[crookie]

This exemplifies the ridiculousness of the system. Why should they need to "borrow" imaginary wealth to get any work done? They have over 10 million workers, they could end their unemployment, homelessness and poverty problems themselves, if they had the confidence to choose a more sensible economic system. Greece is amazingly fertile and relatively sparsely populated, it is better prepared to be self sufficient than most.

World debt is insanity, it weighs almost every country down and it's never going to go away while we persist with this broken system.

Greece isn't screwed because of the financial collapse, it's screwed because of its inherent culture of tax evasion. Declare your own earnings Wonder how spending outweighs revenue !! Blame the EU if you like, but spending billions more than you take in tax receipts will only end badly. As I might add it will here, if we really believe that a gentle economic recovery is suddenly going to generate £100 odd billion in additional tax receipts to finance the deficit.

Is it fair that for Greece, and for us, our refusal to pay our way for the public services we consider essential, our children and grandchildren will be left picking up the tab when we are all since gone, having enjoyed none of the benefits of that debt because we spent it all ?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Have another Mythos and relax
regards
DR

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

History indeed.. but we can't keep clutching onto the archaic systems of the past, especially when they are as self-destructive as this one. If we are to prosper as a species, we need to continue to be progressive. We need to bring the economy into the 21st century, before it's too late.

Greeks, lead the way!

very humble to admit the greeks lead the way,but very true,expect alot of unrest on mainland europe over the next few years

 

[Hastings gull]

History indeed.. but we can't keep clutching onto the archaic systems of the past, especially when they are as self-destructive as this one. If we are to prosper as a species, we need to continue to be progressive. We need to bring the economy into the 21st century, before it's too late.

Greeks, lead the way!

Talk about idealistic vague rubbish -come on, what is one really expected to make of this?

 

[Hastings gull]

... or just scrap the ridiculous system entirely. Who exactly benefits from it all?

Every country needs to look to increase spending, otherwise we will all be riding on a downward spiral together. Austerity is one of the great scams of the 21st century, people should not accept it. Good for the Greeks.

How would this be financed?

 

[Hastings gull]

Greece isn't screwed because of the financial collapse, it's screwed because of its inherent culture of tax evasion. Declare your own earnings Wonder how spending outweighs revenue !! Blame the EU if you like, but spending billions more than you take in tax receipts will only end badly.

Will you stop writing such common sense, please?

 

[Triggaaar]

Free education and healthcare... that sounds like something straight out of the communist manifesto, scrap it.

or perhaps introduce it to countries that don't, now there's an idea.

How am I to introduce it into these other countries exactly? And who on this forum wouldn't like other countries to look after their citizens better?

Human beings are social, communal and largely altruistic - it's in our nature.

No, it's not in the nature of humans to be largely altruistic.

In this system, we are all raised to ruthlessly compete with one another and profiteer over one another - with the end goal being hedonistic endeavours or consumer items. It's really not surprising that "greed" seems like a typical human trait - because it's how we're raised to be...

You're so naive it's ridiculous. Presumably you liked the Russian system, and you think that Russians have grown up to be altruistic, and you believe that Russians look after one another and there's no greed? And presumably the same with China?

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Progress to an economic system where any work that needs to be done, can be done - we shouldn't need to ask "where is the money going to come from" - all we need to do any job, whether it is ending poverty or colonising Mars, is people and resources - we have more than enough of both to achieve anything.

Do you mind me asking how old you are and what animal you are on the farm?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

very humble to admit the greeks lead the way,but very true,expect alot of unrest on mainland europe over the next few years

I doubt it. The EU is in a better and stronger position now, with some of the basket-economies like Ireland and Portugal in much better shape than a few years back. Sticking together has helped these two nations and the EU as a whole. Unlike a few years ago, and assuming the worst, it will not be the worst thing if Greek leaves. 5 years ago it would have been quite different.

 

[Gregory2Smith1]

I doubt it. The EU is in a better and stronger position now, with some of the basket-economies like Ireland and Portugal in much better shape than a few years back. Sticking together has helped these two nations and the EU as a whole. Unlike a few years ago, and assuming the worst, it will not be the worst thing if Greek leaves. 5 years ago it would have been quite different.

well with all due respect to Portugal & Ireland,not exactly big players

don't know how things are your side of the Maginot Line,but France is like a tinder box

 

[Triggaaar]

Bloody Africans, not building enough schools and hospitals. This has nothing to do with virtually every African country being really poor.

It's you that said "We live in a globalised world now - the age of the nation state is ending, the real divisions are now those with money and those without it, rather than nationalities." It seems you've realised you were wrong.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility to provide every person on the planet with clean water, nutritious food, shelter, electricity and education... but I'll leave to you to decide why this isn't currently happening.

I know why it's not happening. It's not happening because humans are not all altruistic, they never have been. Evolution has favoured the fittest, not the most selfless.

Of course, Russia and China... two countries which are famous for their exemplary levels of equality and courageously rejecting the capitalist economy for something more sensible... Oh, hold on a second...

I was explaining to you that humans around the world don't want to look after all the other humans and you said it was the fault of the system which raised us to "ruthlessly compete with one another and profiteer over one another - with the end goal being hedonistic endeavours or consumer items.", so I've given you examples of systems that haven't encouraged their people to compete with each other, and guess what - when the chance came to line their pockets, their people turned out to be selfish too! So which societies would you like to use to demonstrate how people aren't naturally greedy?

 

[Machiavelli]

Free education and healthcare... that sounds like something straight out of the communist manifesto, scrap it.

...or perhaps introduce it to countries that don't, now there's an idea.



Human beings are social, communal and largely altruistic - it's in our nature.

In this system, we are all raised to ruthlessly compete with one another and profiteer over one another - with the end goal being hedonistic endeavours or consumer items. It's really not surprising that "greed" seems like a typical human trait - because it's how we're raised to be... so of course we don't "operate like that", because the system doesn't operate like that... so let's change the system.

Free education and healthcare aren't in The Communist Manifesto. That sort of idea had featured earlier in Lewes-resident Tom Paine's works, however.
And to reiterate an earlier point, you're not going to get anywhere by appealing to some human nature that you -- and 'red-in-tooth-and-claw' capitalists -- like to resort to.

 

[Machiavelli]

It's not happening because humans are not all altruistic, they never have been. Evolution has favoured the fittest, not the most selfless.

You're as bad as Mustafa on this. Two sides of the same coin, but the same argument.

 

[Triggaaar]

You're as bad as Mustafa on this. Two sides of the same coin, but the same argument.

So which of my views do you disagree with, and why?

 

[Machiavelli]

So which of my views do you disagree with, and why?

Both yours and Mustafa's. Because humans have agency, to transport them out of any nature that you or Mustafa choose to impute to them.
Your notion of a growing economy rising all boats is naive too.

 

[Triggaaar]

Both. Because humans have agency, to transport them out of any nature that you or Mustafa choose to impute to them.

So you're saying that all humans are altruistic, and evolution favours those who are selfless. That's an unusual view.

I was replying to Mustafa's question why every person on the planet isn't provided with clean water, nutritious food, shelter, electricity and education - why do you think they're not?