Grammer schools.

[Lawro's Lip]

well thats the whole point of grammars, enhanced education available to all based on ability not background. little rich kids go off to public school regardless, so removal of the grammars just improverished those without the means to provide an improved education. of course, ideally one should make the state schools all rise to a higher standard, but some school of thought believed its better to equalise to an adequate standard, so as not to leave people out. alas the outcome of so much social engineering is to lower the standards and expectations of generations.

I think you might find that many places in the existing grammar schools are taken by well coached private school children whose parents are delighted to save on fees for secondary education. There is also nothing significant about the age of 11. Many children develop academic skills later in their teens whilst others plateau or drop off from their relative achievement at 11 years old.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Why describe the current debate about the future of secondary education as if it was all about the re-introduction of grammar schools?

For most young people it will be all about the re-introduction of secondary modern schools, where children are condemned to a lifetime of failure, starting at age 11.

It wasn't so cut & dried even when the 11+ was the deciding factor. I passed and went to Hove County, but there were children who moved up at 13 because they showed academic promise, when at the secondary modern.
In those days the secondary modern didn't offer any exams at all, which was why the CSEs were introduced. Now it would be more practical subjects rather than academia.

Funnily enough, a lot of girls did better, having a secondary modern education, because shorthand and typing were taught. Secretaries were well paid, whereas very few people from grammar schools were able to go to university. Only the top 1% went in those days.

 

[Sleaford Seagull]

As an ex Grammar School boy I can see the benefits and weaknesses of both sides. The benefits are that coming from a working class family (Grandad a plumber and Dad a Butcher) I had the opportunity to get into a high performing school based on intelligence alone, no matter my parents bank balance. It meant that I got access to the best quality teachers available and could attempt to compete alongside private school pupils better than most. A lot of my classmates went to Oxbridge or similar and the system worked. If you wanted to do Chemistry at Oxford your chances were increased at my school over the local comp.
The downside was that at 11 years old none of us knew what we wanted to do, a lot of people may be 'exam clever' but not enjoy it. The local comprehensive, now an academy had much better facilities based around hands on trades. A good construction and woodwork department, options for work based quals etc. My school had none of that, if anything we were told to work hard or we would end up doing a hands on job. For as many students that thrived and went to top unis, just as many were disenchanted due to the lack of being able to look at more vocational options.
For all the arguments, the biggest issue is making 11 year old kids choose their future.

 

[Gwylan]

This idea that grammar schools offer opportunities for kids from poorer backgrounds is a bit of a myth. Yes, there are some kids but, when I was at Varndean, there weren't many from Moulsecoomb, Whitehawk, Coldean or Hollingdean. There is plenty of evidence that grammar schools perpetuate middle-class dominance. It will be the professional parents who will hire private tutors to help kids pass the exams, shutting out more the poorer pupils.

The other problem is what happens to the rest of the kids, the ones who don't go. As Lord B points out, 80% of the population will have a worse education. Grammar schools will attract the best teachers, have the best facilities and have better staff/pupil ratios. The 80% will get the dregs.

Grammar schools are a massive step backwards, we should be looking at improving education for all, not just an elite

 

[Thunder Bolt]

This idea that grammar schools offer opportunities for kids from poorer backgrounds is a bit of a myth. Yes, there are some kids but, when I was at Varndean, there weren't many from Moulsecoomb, Whitehawk, Coldean or Hollingdean. There is plenty of evidence that grammar schools perpetuate middle-class dominance. It will be the professional parents who will hire private tutors to help kids pass the exams, shutting out more the poorer pupils.

The other problem is what happens to the rest of the kids, the ones who don't go. As Lord B points out, 80% of the population will have a worse education. Grammar schools will attract the best teachers, have the best facilities and have better staff/pupil ratios. The 80% will get the dregs.

Grammar schools are a massive step backwards, we should be looking at improving education for all, not just an elite

I grew up in Portslade, in a terrace house, and my Dad was an electrician for CVA/Kearney & Trecker.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'm an ex-'bog-standard' comprehensive boy of impeccable GCSE results, born of of 2 ex-Grammar school parents.We make far too much of all of this in my opinion.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Looks like we could be seeing one or two more ? As for me (and her indoor's) 11+ failures and a "bit thick" like our youngest son who is a Joiner and a decent one,our eldest 3 "A" Levels all in sport living and working in Austraila. If you are "bright" give that kid the best eduacation you can from wherever they are from,if you "thick" get a trade and be good at it. You will never be out of work,good money (some could be tax free) and do you not what ? People actually respect a good Tradesman and once you have got one you never let them go.

Cracking post sir! Whatever you have you should hope to get the opportunity to make the best you can of it. A trade is a wonderful gift that can, and will if used properly, bring both satisfaction and good financial reward. For those who are more academic then I do not understand why their learning skills should be under utilised because of those who either have a different skill set, or just cannot be arsed.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

In my mind, the biggest problem in secondary education is that no one cares whether you are being stretched, challenged and whether you are putting in the effort. In primary school you have teachers who are generalists who to some extent are able to focus on you and are acutely aware if you are struggling, mucking about, slacking or doing well. In secondary school, no one cares or invests in you as you may have 10-20 teachers all of whom may have hundreds of pupils.
Whilst this might be the right structure for those pursuing academia, it really does not represent the way things work once you get a job. As soon as you have a manager, someone really does care whether you are putting in the effort and getting better.

Whether private, grammar, comprehensive or vocational. The thing that matters most in my opinion is that someone actually gives a shit about you.

 

[Ex-Staffs Gull]

Why does everyone seem to assume that schools focusing on atudents abilities and aptitudes are elitist. Some students/people thrive on pure academics, others thrive on vocational or less traditional academic courses. It is not the education system that fails the students, it is businesses and industry that only value academic success rather than application of knowledge in different ways.

I am sick of snobbery about academic qualifications being superior to more vocational qualifications.

Dont blame the schools or the system, as teaching in a way that can engage a student should be applauded. But how does a student become engaged when they are constantly told they are somehow second class / thick because they are doing design and visual arts as opposed to classic greek and applied physics.
We need skills across the board, not just people that can pass an advance chemisty exam.




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[wellquickwoody]

Why describe the current debate about the future of secondary education as if it was all about the re-introduction of grammar schools?

For most young people it will be all about the re-introduction of secondary modern schools, where children are condemned to a lifetime of failure, starting at age 11.

Why re-introduce something that did not work? Why not bring back grammar schools alongside the current vogue of Academies? Why brand a child as a failure for not being as academic as some others? Why not a failure for not being as arty/sporty/dexterous as others? One size really does not fit all.

 

[topbanana36]

Went to two comprehensive schools both of which were dreadful and still are. My wife on the other hand went to a Grammar school and is very successful academically. Given the CHOICE I would send my daughters to Grammar schools. Sadly, the t***pot Blair put a stop to that choice. So I am in favour of that choice and there should be a Grammar school in every town, good news if it happens!

 

[wellquickwoody]

Exactly right. Just shows the current poverty of thinking about the future of education in England.

So carrying on the same policy as the last 40 years is not just the lazy option then?

 

[Wardy's twin]

IMO many modern secondary schools are too large so there is no engagement between pupil and teacher, there is also a propensity to churn teachers which just exacerbates the problem. With larger numbers how can a teacher know whether someone is doing better or worse than expected or know what their strengths/weaknesses are. The large comprehensives also tend to stream even if they don't admit it.

 

[Lawro's Lip]

I didn't say just keep things as they are. I just don't feel there is any evidence that reintroducing grammar schools would bring about improvements. Neither is it true that policy has been unchanged over the last 40 years. There have been many changes over the last twenty years. Right now some kind of national discussion about what the country and pupils need from state investment in education would be worthwhile. What end product do we want from education, particularly in primary and secondary schools.This thread is a start! Currently too much policy is made by politicians who think they know best.

 

[sllugaes]

The whole system needs changing IMO.

By 14 you probably know whether you're going to make your way in the world with your 'hands or your head'.

What's the point in someone with zero interest in say History, languages or Geography being forced into taking subjects they don't want to take, I wouldn't call the academic schools grammar schools, but I would have girls and boys who want to learn a trade have the opportunity to do so and move into 'technical' schools or whatever you want to call them.

I'd still make sure that basic English and maths as well as basic IT were still taught at these schools, as well as teaching all kids, at both types of school about bank accounts, credit cards, pensions, mortgages, mobile phone contracts etc....

The working world now is all about skills, not knowledge.

Tend to agree with your comments.

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[sllugaes]

The whole system needs changing IMO.

By 14 you probably know whether you're going to make your way in the world with your 'hands or your head'.

What's the point in someone with zero interest in say History, languages or Geography being forced into taking subjects they don't want to take, I wouldn't call the academic schools grammar schools, but I would have girls and boys who want to learn a trade have the opportunity to do so and move into 'technical' schools or whatever you want to call them.

I'd still make sure that basic English and maths as well as basic IT were still taught at these schools, as well as teaching all kids, at both types of school about bank accounts, credit cards, pensions, mortgages, mobile phone contracts etc....

The working world now is all about skills, not knowledge.

Oh, meant to add to your comment relating to life skills taught, bank accounts and mortgages. Oh add bloody utility bills to that list - I still struggle sometimes!!

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[vegster]

Secondary school: factory fodder and then they closed all the factories.

This

 

[Gwylan]

Went to two comprehensive schools both of which were dreadful and still are. My wife on the other hand went to a Grammar school and is very successful academically. Given the CHOICE I would send my daughters to Grammar schools. Sadly, the t***pot Blair put a stop to that choice. So I am in favour of that choice and there should be a Grammar school in every town, good news if it happens!

But you don't have a choice, grammar schools are aimed at the top 20% (or however many are selected) - the vast majority of people won't benefit from them

And it wasn't Blair who stopped grammar schools, most of them were closed by Thatcher when she was education secretary

 

[beorhthelm]

And it wasn't Blair who stopped grammar schools, most of them were closed by Thatcher when she was education secretary

and Wilson shut most the mines. funny how the view of history gets coloured.

as i think about it, there isnt a problem with grammars - whats wrong with selection - but they arent the answer either. people have different abilities and so on, so seems to me provision of a range of targeted eductional institutions would be a good idea. that takes to acedemies, with different focuses - pure academia, vocational, sports, etc.

 

[Lord Bracknell]

Went to two comprehensive schools both of which were dreadful and still are. My wife on the other hand went to a Grammar school and is very successful academically. Given the CHOICE I would send my daughters to Grammar schools. Sadly, the t***pot Blair put a stop to that choice. So I am in favour of that choice and there should be a Grammar school in every town, good news if it happens!

It wasn't Blair who put an end to grammar schools in East Sussex. It was the Tory controlled county council, who worked out that a properly implemented comprehensive system delivered better opportunities and better results for the young people in the education system. The local Tory councillors were adamant about this and were very scornful of what their backwoodsman colleagues in Kent were up to. This was in the late 1970s.